New Canadian Politics Thread

[Altair]

I prefer a bit of chaos to 36% of the electorate holding the rest of us hostage for a decade of Harper rule because of vote splitting on the left. The Conservative Party as it exists today wouldn't exist if it wasn't for FPTP. There would be a wildrose/reform style party, and a Conservative Party. I much prefer that to 51% of the Conservative party picking someone like Doug Ford and then having 36% of the electorate give that guy a mandate.

Horseshit system

Trudeau is prime minister with what percent of the vote? Let's not cherry pick.

 

[MindzEye]

Trudeau is prime minister with what percent of the vote? Let's not cherry pick.

I'm not cherry picking.

The same holds for Trudeau and Liberal voters. 36% of the electorate shouldn't be given a mandate blank cheque.

 

[Altair]

I'm not cherry picking.

The same holds for Trudeau and Liberal voters. 36% of the electorate shouldn't be given a mandate blank cheque.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Its not broken. It just sucks sometimes. People are going to get the government they deserve. If people refuse to shift from liberal to NDP, or vice versa, depending on the election and who is in the lead at any given point, they get what they deserve.

 

[MindzEye]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Its not broken. It just sucks sometimes. People are going to get the government they deserve. If people refuse to shift from liberal to NDP, or vice versa, depending on the election and who is in the lead at any given point, they get what they deserve.

So the onus is on the majority of the people split among two parties to constantly battle with the coalesced minority to keep from having 36% of voters from having carte blanche?

Sure sounds broken to me.

 

[worm]

true.

but all cabinet members are at least elected by their local voters first. so the threshold they clear is direct democracy. party list, the threshold you clear is party politics.

I think you are being naive if you don't think you will see party insiders ride their connections, fundraising clout etc to parliament without the support of voters. of course, that is just one in a number of trade offs. to get more PR, something will have to give.

iirc that is not always true

im not naive but i just do not care that much

it happens now with the senate and it happens with the nomination process

and if people actually care they will vote against parties that put those types of ppl on the lists

 

[worm]

Canadians have this bizarre reflex reaction against coalitions. I'm not saying I want coalitions and only coalitions, but they can and do work in many places. Israel and Italy are on the chaotic side and I want no part in that (they are also fully PR I believe). But New Zealand or Germany? I can live with the coalition building that happens there.

and if you so desire start it off with a 10% threshold

 

[BeLeafer]

I'm not cherry picking.

The same holds for Trudeau and Liberal voters. 36% of the electorate shouldn't be given a mandate blank cheque.

Trudeau's Liberals got 39.5% of the vote. With a 68.3% turnout, this represents only 27% of the electorate. And that was a high turnout election.

It's worse than it looks. We get governments with huge mandates, which the media typically pump up, when they've only been supported by little more than a quarter of the voting population.

As for political parties hatinng each other, maybe they'd learn to get along better if they had to cooperate.

 

[leafman101]

The system needs to adapt. The idea that the system of government created in a time where it took weeks on a horse to get to Ottawa still works perfectly today is nuts.

With the internet there has to be a better way for people to actually be represented.

The Ontario election is a perfect example. We now have to pick the lesser of two evils, for a lack of a better expression, between Ford and Horwath and adopt their entire platform for the next 4 years without any patches and updates until the next election.

 

[leafman101]

As for political parties hatinng each other, maybe they'd learn to get along better if they had to cooperate.

That is the other thing. The party system in general probably doesn't work effectively as it creates artificial boundaries that elected representatives won't cross. The idea was supposed to be that each district sends someone to represent their interests. Not we have to pick a party to represent its own interests. Why does every single district have to elect someone that is a proxy for either Ford or Horwath.

 

[BeLeafer]

The system needs to adapt. The idea that the system of government created in a time where it took weeks on a horse to get to Ottawa still works perfectly today is nuts.

With the internet there has to be a better way for people to actually be represented.

The Ontario election is a perfect example. We now have to pick the lesser of two evils, for a lack of a better expression, between Ford and Horwath and adopt their entire platform for the next 4 years without any patches and updates until the next election.

It's worse than that. If you vote Tory, you really don't have any clue about what you're voting for other than tax cuts and cheaper beer, gas and electricity. There will be plenty of surprises if you go that route. Much like if you voted Liberal last time -- anyone recall them campaigning on (or even mentioning) their major policy initiative in 2014?

 

[BeLeafer]

That is the other thing. The party system in general probably doesn't work effectively as it creates artificial boundaries that elected representatives won't cross. The idea was supposed to be that each district sends someone to represent their interests. Not we have to pick a party to represent its own interests. Why does every single district have to elect someone that is a proxy for either Ford or Horwath.

Ideally, we find a way to dispense with parties altogether. The party system is in place to prevent change that will upset the establishment.

 

[leafman101]

It's worse than that. If you vote Tory, you really don't have any clue about what you're voting for other than tax cuts and cheaper beer, gas and electricity. There will be plenty of surprises if you go that route. Much like if you voted Liberal last time -- anyone recall them campaigning on (or even mentioning) their major policy initiative in 2014?

yeah thats a good point. They really should be required to disclose a detailed budget at the very least. This is a pretty important job and the interview process is not adequate.

 

[zeke]

Can someone list the downsides of the ndp winning?

 

[BeLeafer]

Can someone list the downsides of the ndp winning?

Bay Street losing its shit again.

 

[BeLeafer]

yeah thats a good point. They really should be required to disclose a detailed budget at the very least. This is a pretty important job and the interview process is not adequate.

Wouldn't it be nice if they were barred from rolling out big initiatives they didn't mention when campaigning? Sure there's contingencies, but privatizing Hydro One was a huge item never mentioned and only done within a year of getting the vote.

 

[LeafGm]

Operating without political parties is a nice idea, but I think it's one based on an overly optimistic view of human nature, and our tendency towards tribalism.

If you don't have official political parties, you're still going to end up with unofficial ones that group together & operate largely the same way. Just look at Toronto city hall. Officially, there are no political parties there, but it's not exactly difficult to pick out who the "NDP councillors", "Liberal councillors" and "Conservative councillors" are.

 

[BeLeafer]

Operating without political parties is a nice idea, but I think it's one based on an overly optimistic view of human nature, and our tendency towards tribalism.

If you don't have official political parties, you're still going to end up with unofficial ones that group together & operate largely the same way. Just look at Toronto city hall. Officially, there are no political parties there, but it's not exactly difficult to pick out who the "NDP councillors", "Liberal councillors" and "Conservative councillors" are.

The key advantage is that there's no party machinery to pre-select candidates. We'd get a much better pool of people entering the fray.

 

[Wayward DP]

Can someone list the downsides of the ndp winning?

structural deficit for eternity, increasing debt.

bungled rollout of social programs.

extreme fringe elements within the party.

overly beholden to union interests.

lack of competent ministers, staffers, etc (i.e. the machinery of government)

negative economic repercussions because of their tax policy (although I'm not sold on this, I think the rich should pay more)

and to be honest I don't hold Horwath in very high regard either

that's off the top of my head. and in no way would I argue Ford > Horwath


***note - I would be happy for you to allay my concerns here***

 

[zeke]

and the thing is we now have the technology to replace most of what that party machinery was good for.

in fact, technology gives us the opportunity to transform our outdated and failing democracies into much truer democracies that are more responsive and representative of the people.

but, at the same time, it's not easy, and there are all sorts of pitfalls we'd have to avoid.

 

[Wayward DP]

and the thing is we now have the technology to replace most of what that party machinery was good for.

in fact, technology gives us the opportunity to transform our outdated and failing democracies into much truer democracies that are more responsive and representative of the people.

but, at the same time, it's not easy, and there are all sorts of pitfalls we'd have to avoid.

the biggest hurdle I foresee is convincing those in power to authorize changes that would fundamentally change the system to their and their party's detriment