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OT: American Politics

Wayward DP said:
its the price of access. and access is required to be eligible for a ton of entry-level jobs.

it's the same for lawyers. the debt you take on to attend school far exceeds what you can reasonably expect to earn early in your career, and that was before the cost of living shot way the hell up.

so the only other option, if we're not letting folks borrow to attend higher education, is to make higher education only available to those rich enough to afford it. so future lawyers will only come from families who can pay law school tuition. I want no part of this type of world.
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So what? Why would you want that access. It’s like any other investment. The price of access for living in x location might be more than you could ever pay back - so don’t live there. If the cost of getting the degree is more than you can pay working a career in that degree then do something else.

Or go to community college for the first couple years etc. or serve in the military first etc.

Borrowing money to pay tuition rates that are more expensive than the related careers just feeds it. If people stop getting accounting degrees because CPAs don’t make enough to pay back the loans then the system will adjust. There are plenty of occupations that don’t require college degrees as well.

Also the affordability is based on your ability to pay it back early in your career. If you want to be a lawyer and borrow a ton of money your logic is that you’re also going to make a ton of money later in your career. Why should say a nurse who worked through school and then paid off what loans they have then have to pay off a lawyer’s loans when he’s already making more than the nurse? That’s insane logic.

If schools are overcharging for degrees then sue them. Or don’t go to those schools. If 18 is old enough to vote then you’re old enough that I shouldn’t have to reimburse you for your stupid mistakes.
 
worm said:
The old school GOP. Probably. Trump... Must be some little minor things I agree with. The big issues I disagree with them all. Eg. When in office he reduced student loan forgiveness.
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Problem with the old school GOP is that even on items that sounded worth listening to, it was always just cover fire for bullshit. "Reduce the deficit" was always cover fire for Laffer economic nonsense that is the direct cause of this Gilded Age 2.0 we seem to be in now.
 
Wayward DP said:
so the only other option, if we're not letting folks borrow to attend higher education, is to make higher education only available to those rich enough to afford it. so future lawyers will only come from families who can pay law school tuition. I want no part of this type of world.
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I didn’t say don’t let them borrow. I said they borrowed they pay it back. The degree is for their benefit. They reap the rewards. They pay the price.

I don’t think anyone should be loaning them money for degrees that are a bad risk. Where the salary for those careers are not worth the investment.
 
cmon3 said:
So what? Why would you want that access. It’s like any other investment. The price of access for living in x location might be more than you could ever pay back - so don’t live there. If the cost of getting the degree is more than you can pay working a career in that degree then do something else.
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so you want to condemn folks who are born poor to living in poverty forever because the price of an education is too high?

you refuse to acknowledge the practical implications of what you are arguing - that's what it is.
cmon3 said:
Or go to community college for the first couple years etc. or serve in the military first etc.

Borrowing money to pay tuition rates that are more expensive than the related careers just feeds it. If people stop getting accounting degrees because CPAs don’t make enough to pay back the loans then the system will adjust.
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there is currently a shortage of skilled professionals across a LOT of different fields lol.

for example, in Canada, we need way MORE doctors. limiting the pool of eligible doctors pre-emptively based on their finances will not solve the problem.
cmon3 said:
There are plenty of occupations that don’t require college degrees as well.
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great. I'm not telling folks that if they're born poor, they MUST pursue one of these. but that's the practical implication of what you are arguing right now.

your position amounts to "fuck the american dream, if you're poor"
cmon3 said:
Also the affordability is based on your ability to pay it back early in your career. If you want to be a lawyer and borrow a ton of money your logic is that you’re also going to make a ton of money later in your career. Why should say a nurse who worked through school and then paid off what loans they have then have to pay off a lawyer’s loans when he’s already making more than the nurse? That’s insane logic.
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again, our tax dollars are routinely used for things we may find personally abhorrent. that's part of the deal of democracy. I accept it.
cmon3 said:
If schools are overcharging for degrees then sue them.
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on what basis? what law are they violating?

with what money?

with what lawyer?

what you're suggesting is just not remotely practical or realistic.
cmon3 said:
Or don’t go to those schools. If 18 is old enough to vote then you’re old enough that I shouldn’t have to reimburse you for your stupid mistakes.
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again, it sounds like you think poor Americans should simply not be able to attend higher education. I disagree with that.
 
cmon3 said:
I didn’t say don’t let them borrow. I said they borrowed they pay it back. The degree is for their benefit. They reap the rewards. They pay the price.

I don’t think anyone should be loaning them money for degrees that are a bad risk. Where the salary for those careers are not worth the investment.
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okay, so how do you propose poorer Americans get access to professional degrees?
 
thehabhater said:
Russia invaded a sovereign country. They need to get the hell out.

This is no different than Russia invading the state of Alaska, Canada, or Greenland.
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problem is Ukraine cannot drive them out, the annexed territories are gone. They are the CSA fighting against the USA in the US Civil War. They are massively outnumbered in people, supplies and while the will is good and the bravery high, they will lose in the end unless they get other countries to join the fight. Right now, and likely for the foreseeable future, there is no such appetite. Only person I know who wants the west to put in ground troops in Donbas is Wehave because he has a sick desire for my son to be drafted and die there.

At the end of the day, as I stated over 1.5 years ago, the settlement is, no NATO and Russia keeps the annexed territories who want to be in Russia anyway.

As Wehave has stated on many occasion, objective reality is neither good nor bad, it just is.
 
FlyGuy said:
It's not black and white. There's nuance to any persons set of beliefs. Oversimplify all you want.
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maybe their white guilt means they have to vote for a side that calls them misogynist toxic racist males as some form of flagellation. It would be better for them to find a hot dominatrix to ease their guilt than voting for Kam
 
TheCountofMonteCristo said:
problem is Ukraine cannot drive them out, the annexed territories are gone. They are the CSA fighting against the USA in the US Civil War. They are massively outnumbered in people, supplies and while the will is good and the bravery high, they will lose in the end unless they get other countries to join the fight.
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Russia does not have the ability to sustain this action forever. The US & Europe absolutely has the ability to support Ukraine until Russia falls apart. If Europe had the industrial military base they could do it alone on ecomomic strength if they chose to.

That's what a war of attrition is. It's a war between economies.
 
Wayward DP said:
okay, so how do you propose poorer Americans get access to professional degrees?
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If the professional degree doesn’t pay enough to offset the cost of the education to get there then yes. I disagree with that premise though. And there are other ways besides loans to get a degree.
 
For example. Fly guys wife owes $50k in school loans.

Starting salary is 63k avg for entry level accounting degree. Average CPA salary is much higher.

The degree is an investment in the future to be able to make far more than middle class income. Why should “poor people” have their taxes go to pay off his wife’s loan?
 
MindzEye said:
Russia does not have the ability to sustain this action forever. The US & Europe absolutely has the ability to support Ukraine until Russia falls apart. If Europe had the industrial military base they could do it alone on ecomomic strength if they chose to.

That's what a war of attrition is. It's a war between economies.
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Oh, goodie, another forever war
 
cmon3 said:
For example. Fly guys wife owes $50k in school loans.

Starting salary is 63k avg for entry level accounting degree. Average CPA salary is much higher.

The degree is an investment in the future to be able to make far more than middle class income. Why should “poor people” have their taxes go to pay off his wife’s loan?
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Why should taxes go to anything I disagree with?
 
MindzEye said:
Serious question...but which one should I have and what does he actually stand for?

- On immigration, count me as a "secure the border with a path to perm residence" guy ideologically. That's nothing remotely close to Trump and I find his stance on immigration to be purposefully cruel, and accidentally dumb as fucking rocks.

- I have my foreign policy quibbles with Biden & Kamala, but their base positions on supporting Ukraine & Taiwan from Russian & Chinese aggression are the right ones. Biden did more to handicap China with a phone call to the Dutch and the CHIPS act than Trump could in 50 years with tariffs. I know we're going to continue disagreeing on Ukraine because something something money laundering that there's no real evidence of, but the most telling bit here imo is that your boy would have happily supported Ukraine if they had just been willing to invent evidence of "BIDEN FAMILY CORRUPTION!!!" that didn't exist. We know it doesn't fucking exist because after all of that time and effort all they got Hunter on was that he had a drug problem, a huge cock, and lied on a gun ownership document that the right hates the existence of in the first place. Ukraine is the biggest foreign policy crisis of our times and Trump is on the wrong side of it.

- Domestic economics? Trump tax cuts are a fucking nightmare for the economy and appear designed to detonate the economy because the middle class apparently needs to feel pain first before. The only knock on the Biden economy was an international inflation event that the US weathered better than anyone else.

- Right to choose/abortion. It's hard to listen to one side rattle on about freedom when their ideology takes the freedom of making significant health care choices away from 52% of the population.

I'm seriously curious what stances I'm supposed to align with Trump on.
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Yup. I know it seems to someone like FlyGuy that we hate Trump and can't give him credit for anything. But it's because he's such a terrible human being, and because so many of his policies and ideas are also terrible. Not to mention the people he surrounds himself with. Anybody willing to tell him the truth, fired. Anyone willing to lick his taint are rewarded, even if it's obvious why they do it: in some cases because they are imbeciles, in most cases because they have ulterior motives, which are usually power they are exactly the wrong people to hold, personal enrichment, or for the benefit of criminal enterprises or foreign governments.

Agree with Mindz on the immigration piece above, I do think border security needs to be tightened, and some people probably need to be deported. Certainly anyone who committed violent crimes. But for us the cruelty is a huge problem, but Trump and his Project 2025 cronies it the entire purpose of the policy.

I have been told he's more likely to provide funds to NASA. Maybe Obama and Biden weren't quite as friendly to space exploration as some would like, but how can I give any credit for this to someone who has offered a man with an extremely fucking obvious conflict of interest the power to slash the budget of NASA?

Since so many of his picks have been mind-bogglingly awful, I will wait to learn more about this person, but is it possible he actually made an okay choice here?


View: https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1860453114379202627
 
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