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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Leafin'

Well-known member
Lol. This is getting taken way too serious. I’m not happy with them either but damnit I want this team to do good.

holding out a bit of hope for a good offseason. Tall order I know but a guy can hope.
 

Pwner

Member
Truth be told, I HATED the first couple of years of the Shatkins regime.

Couldn't/wouldn't sell high on the vets that we had, in fact probably sold low. Not resigning EE was bad - and resigning Joey Bats was also bad.

They thought the market inefficiency was "hard hit" balls. Which is good, unless they can't HIT balls, then it is very bad ie. Grickuk and Morales and Derek Fisher (man I hate Morales).

BUT, since 2018, they have actually had a good run:
  1. Grichkuk for a reliever and a failed prospect
  2. Stole Teo
  3. Signed LGJ to a great contract
  4. Drafted well - still a top 5 minor league system AFTER studs like Biggio, Bichette and Vladdy graduated
  5. Made some sneaky trades for pitching and they are really good at signing Relief pitching.
  6. Everyone HATED the Stroman trade, but it looks like a heist now.
  7. They have ALL the catching
The reason they are in on every FA, is because they have a very low payroll and this is the time to get into the FA market BEFORE their studs need big money. Just think about this: IF they get Springer and LeMahieu or a Pitcher, they are now a LEGIT Championship team, NOW.

Not the failed FO that people here think they are.

ps. a Blue Jays message board that I follow - who are all stats nerds - LOVE the FO. So maybe give them a longer look?
 

UWHabs

Well-known member
Truth be told, I HATED the first couple of years of the Shatkins regime.

Couldn't/wouldn't sell high on the vets that we had, in fact probably sold low. Not resigning EE was bad - and resigning Joey Bats was also bad.

They thought the market inefficiency was "hard hit" balls. Which is good, unless they can't HIT balls, then it is very bad ie. Grickuk and Morales and Derek Fisher (man I hate Morales).

BUT, since 2018, they have actually had a good run:
  1. Grichkuk for a reliever and a failed prospect
  2. Stole Teo
  3. Signed LGJ to a great contract
  4. Drafted well - still a top 5 minor league system AFTER studs like Biggio, Bichette and Vladdy graduated
  5. Made some sneaky trades for pitching and they are really good at signing Relief pitching.
  6. Everyone HATED the Stroman trade, but it looks like a heist now.
  7. They have ALL the catching
The reason they are in on every FA, is because they have a very low payroll and this is the time to get into the FA market BEFORE their studs need big money. Just think about this: IF they get Springer and LeMahieu or a Pitcher, they are now a LEGIT Championship team, NOW.

Not the failed FO that people here think they are.

ps. a Blue Jays message board that I follow - who are all stats nerds - LOVE the FO. So maybe give them a longer look?

People are still pissed about how badly they failed to manage the team those first few years. Gonna take more than an expanded playoff appearance and exit to forgive them.
 

leafman101

Well-known member
Its way more than that. The Jays finally built a contending team after 20 years, and Rogers finally opened up the pocked books as promised, and then fired the architects and brought these guys in to dismantle the team, cut the payroll in half (maybe even more than that depending on if they spend any money this offseason) in 5 years, try to convince the fans that this is good and ultimately lead to another decade of mediocrity.

Jays fans have seen the Shaprio movie before and know how it ends.
 

Wayward DP

Well-known member
What the ****?

Though I guess this doesn’t change much for me anyway. As long as Rogers still owns and operates this team, I wasn’t going to watch any games or pay attention to them no matter which shmuck they put in charge of the team.

Even so, it’s still stunning that this loser merits a long-term extension in their eyes.
your mistake is assuming that wins and losses have any impact on Rogers decision making.
 

Wayward DP

Well-known member
Its way more than that. The Jays finally built a contending team after 20 years, and Rogers finally opened up the pocked books as promised, and then fired the architects and brought these guys in to dismantle the team, cut the payroll in half (maybe even more than that depending on if they spend any money this offseason) in 5 years, try to convince the fans that this is good and ultimately lead to another decade of mediocrity.

Jays fans have seen the Shaprio movie before and know how it ends.
excellent summary.

it would be different if the bean counter they brought in at least had a track record of success.
 

manny

Well-known member
The comparisons with Anthopoulos are also inevitable and very damning. AA took over a 72 win team in Atlanta and has led them to three straight division championships. He signed Ozzie Albies and Ronald Acuna to absurdly team-friendly extensions within days of Shapiro and Atkins giving a head-scratching extension to Randal Grichuk. It's totally on-brand, because AA values high-end talent and isn't afraid to pay for it, and Shapiro and Atkins value risk avoidance. The Braves are a great team now and will probably be good for a very long time with AA running the show.

We could have had that as well. In fact, we did have exactly that, but then Rogers decided they were better off handing the reigns to the risk-aversion duo from Cleveland. Things have gone exactly as predicted.

And yes, the Jays were not a playoff team last year except for the circumstances that led to a 60-game season and expanded playoffs. The short season and expanded rosters helped mask that their pitching staff is total shambles. They have one MLB-quality SP. They're not a few moves away from contender status, they're probably five or six winning moves and a few years of development away. Other than signing Ryu and not trading away any of the young stars yet, this admin hasn't done anything to inspire confidence. So, sure, let's give them 5 more years.

The Jays best bet for success in the short to medium term is to get Shapiro out of baseball ops and replace Atkins with someone better. We're probably at least two seasons of failure away from that.
 

leafman101

Well-known member
The comparisons with Anthopoulos are also inevitable and very damning. AA took over a 72 win team in Atlanta and has led them to three straight division championships. He signed Ozzie Albies and Ronald Acuna to absurdly team-friendly extensions within days of Shapiro and Atkins giving a head-scratching extension to Randal Grichuk. It's totally on-brand, because AA values high-end talent and isn't afraid to pay for it, and Shapiro and Atkins value risk avoidance. The Braves are a great team now and will probably be good for a very long time with AA running the show.

We could have had that as well. In fact, we did have exactly that, but then Rogers decided they were better off handing the reigns to the risk-aversion duo from Cleveland. Things have gone exactly as predicted.

And yes, the Jays were not a playoff team last year except for the circumstances that led to a 60-game season and expanded playoffs. The short season and expanded rosters helped mask that their pitching staff is total shambles. They have one MLB-quality SP. They're not a few moves away from contender status, they're probably five or six winning moves and a few years of development away. Other than signing Ryu and not trading away any of the young stars yet, this admin hasn't done anything to inspire confidence. So, sure, let's give them 5 more years.

The Jays best bet for success in the short to medium term is to get Shapiro out of baseball ops and replace Atkins with someone better. We're probably at least two seasons of failure away from that.

Yeah, I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that AA is proving what he did here was no fluke, and Shapiro is proving what he did in Cleveland was no fluke.
 

Pwner

Member
Look, I am not gonna be a Shatkins apologist, but AA walked into a really nice situation: He had the Number 1 Farm system for talent and to use in trade: https://www.minorleagueball.com/2017/2/27/14754166/2017-farm-system-rankings

Plus a new ballpark, so his owners wanted to spend some money. So it wasn't a "tear down/rebuild". It was a "do something NOW" situation.

Shatkins screwed up in the first couple of years. I hate corporate double speak, I hate not giving clear answers and "years of control". All of that sucked/sucks.

But in the last couple of years, they have done some really nice stuff, and because of the first couple of years, this board doesn't want to give them any credit.

Which is your right, but it does come off as: "Hire Dubas? When they let go of Godfather Lou? And when Mark Hunter is right there ready to take over. They are never gonna win with Dubas and his fancy stats... he has wasted couple of years and hasn't had anything to show for it. The Leafs will suck unless they get rid of Dubas!"
 

leafman101

Well-known member
Shaprio walked into a great situation with a team full of elite talent, the top prospect in baseball, an no long term contractual commitments.

They both walked into a good situation. One guy made it better, the other made it worse.

And for the record AA was Dubas before Dubas. Dubas is just the AA of hockey.
 

manny

Well-known member
Look, I am not gonna be a Shatkins apologist, but AA walked into a really nice situation: He had the Number 1 Farm system for talent and to use in trade: https://www.minorleagueball.com/2017/2/27/14754166/2017-farm-system-rankings

Plus a new ballpark, so his owners wanted to spend some money. So it wasn't a "tear down/rebuild". It was a "do something NOW" situation.

Shatkins screwed up in the first couple of years. I hate corporate double speak, I hate not giving clear answers and "years of control". All of that sucked/sucks.

But in the last couple of years, they have done some really nice stuff, and because of the first couple of years, this board doesn't want to give them any credit.

Which is your right, but it does come off as: "Hire Dubas? When they let go of Godfather Lou? And when Mark Hunter is right there ready to take over. They are never gonna win with Dubas and his fancy stats... he has wasted couple of years and hasn't had anything to show for it. The Leafs will suck unless they get rid of Dubas!"

Appreciate your enthusiasm, don't agree at all with your take. Especially the comparison with the Leafs. A better analogy would be if the Raptors had fired Masai after 2017 and brought in the New York Knicks management team, then those guys did nothing to either bolster the roster or make trades to recuperate assets, and the best thing you could say is that the team *might* be decent in a few years if they suddenly change course.

In Atlanta, AA took over a team with a good farm system that had just been penalized for breaking rules in the international recruitment and forced to forfeit 13 prospects, including a few of their top rated. The GM was fired, the farm system, while good, was seriously depleted, and the team was poor. AA promoted the right prospects, signed them to outstanding long-term deals, and made a bunch of key FA additions. As for payroll, they're middle of the road, just like Toronto.

AA has an outstanding track-record and while that might be an unfair basis of comparison for other franchises, it is literally what we already had in Toronto. Rogers stumbled its way into a winning hand and bungled it beyond belief.
 

Wayward DP

Well-known member
Appreciate your enthusiasm, don't agree at all with your take. Especially the comparison with the Leafs. A better analogy would be if the Raptors had fired Masai after 2017 and brought in the New York Knicks management team, then those guys did nothing to either bolster the roster or make trades to recuperate assets, and the best thing you could say is that the team *might* be decent in a few years if they suddenly change course.

In Atlanta, AA took over a team with a good farm system that had just been penalized for breaking rules in the international recruitment and forced to forfeit 13 prospects, including a few of their top rated. The GM was fired, the farm system, while good, was seriously depleted, and the team was poor. AA promoted the right prospects, signed them to outstanding long-term deals, and made a bunch of key FA additions. As for payroll, they're middle of the road, just like Toronto.

AA has an outstanding track-record and while that might be an unfair basis of comparison for other franchises, it is literally what we already had in Toronto. Rogers stumbled its way into a winning hand and bungled it beyond belief.
they summarily chased away the most successful GM this city's baseball team had seen in two decades.

and replaced him with beancounters who couldn't give fewer shits about wins and losses
 
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