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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Jeremy

Well-known member
re the italics: it really feels as though you and Jeremy seem to object to anyone who doesn't toe this party line and also dislikes shapkins
I’m not sure we should continue this, but I wanted to mention what’s above is not true for myself. I just think it would be better if we have objective discussions. And it’s a bit hard not to eventually say something about it after years of bashing in every post. But I can accept being actually wrong or others not agreeing with me.
 
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Wayward DP

Well-known member
I’m not sure we should continue this, but I wanted to mention what’s above is not true for myself. I just think it would be better if we have objective discussions. And it’s a bit hard not to eventually say something about it after years of bashing in every post. But I can accept being actually wrong or others not agreeing with me.
I encourage you to disagree with any position I take and explain why you feel that I am incorrect. I mean it's a message board, would be pretty boring if we all agreed. I don't think I've ever hesitated to engage on the issues. But I'm not going to apologize for my opinion on the Jays current management or ownership situation.

If anything, I feel like I'm doing a mitzvah by trying to help optimistic and excited fans more reasonably manage their expectations...

You're also welcome to comment on the general tone or attitude of postings, but know that I am likely to respond. And hey, if I'm wrong and shatkins turn out not to be incompetent, virtue signalling, sexual harassment enabling, risk averse fagpouchies, I'll have a lot of crow to eat. But until then, I think it's rich to be criticized for having negative feelings towards a team/management group that has a .477 winning percentage overall, including the ALCS level team they inherited (for the record, since shapkins took over, the Jays win total has decreased every year).
 

manny

Well-known member
And hey, if I'm wrong and shatkins turn out not to be incompetent, virtue signalling, sexual harassment enabling, risk averse fagpouchies, I'll have a lot of crow to eat. But until then, I think it's rich to be criticized for having negative feelings towards a team/management group that has a .477 winning percentage overall, including the ALCS level team they inherited (for the record, since shapkins took over, the Jays win total has decreased every year).
Is the jury really out on any of this? The only question is whether, despite all that, they can build a winner.

Honestly, there is a very good chance that the best team Shapiro and Atkins will ever oversee is the 2016 version they inherited from AA. They expertly managed downside risk by adding nothing of significance to the 2015 ALCS team. Sorry... they added Melvin Upton at the deadline because their leadoff hitter at the time was one of Zeke Carrera, Kevin Pillar or Darwin Barney. "Trying to win."

Anyway, speaking of that 2016 team, Aaron Sanchez may finally be re-establishing himself as a bona fide MLB pitcher this year in SF. Underlying numbers aren't great, but he has made 6 starts, all of them decent save the last one, and sports a 3.18 ERA. Sanchez is one year younger than Julian Merryweather.
 
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manny

Well-known member
Eh Sanchez sits at like 90 now.
So like a cheaper, more effective Tanner Roark.

Oddly despite the 7mph drop in velocity, his K% is up slightly overall. SSS applies.

I'm not lamenting losing Sanchez at all, just interesting to note his comeback. There's a guy that Shapiro and Atkins could have sold high on though, if they had actually ever intended to rebuild.
 

zeke

Well-known member
So like a cheaper, more effective Tanner Roark.

Oddly despite the 7mph drop in velocity, his K% is up slightly overall. SSS applies.

I'm not lamenting losing Sanchez at all, just interesting to note his comeback. There's a guy that Shapiro and Atkins could have sold high on though, if they had actually ever intended to rebuild.

All I remember is them benching him for the playoffs push when he was leading the league in ERA and not even near 200ip.
 

Wayward DP

Well-known member
Astros are risk averse fagpouchies for letting him go.
so this is a great example of instead of making a flippant remark instead of actually trying to engage in the issues... (I mean I'm sure I'm guilty of it at times too so karma dictates I will be called out for this in the future :p)
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
Just a joke, not too interested in spending time discussing Aaron Sanchez except to say what a disappointment he turned out to be. Surprised he's still starting rather than in the bullpen where he probably belongs, but doing alright so far in SF.
 

Bleedsblue&white

Well-known member
so this is a great example of instead of making a flippant remark instead of actually trying to engage in the issues... (I mean I'm sure I'm guilty of it at times too so karma dictates I will be called out for this in the future :p)
Myself, I don't have a problem with criticism thrown shatkins way, I also feel, though, that the love affair with AA was so strong that they weren't given a chance.

I also feel a bunch of people here don't understand how much AA gutted everything to push for a Win...I would give any new group some time walking into what had been done here.
It's less about criticism and more about the constant whining since they got here with just about 0 acknowledgement of how things are turning around.

..and I feel it's because, as much as people bitch zeke out for this...95% don't ever want to admit being wrong about anything, so barely any acknowledgement of the lineup they have been putting together, or admitting that nobody (but them?) gave this bullpen a chance, signing Ryu one year and Springer the next...
 

Wayward DP

Well-known member
Myself, I don't have a problem with criticism thrown shatkins way, I also feel, though, that the love affair with AA was so strong that they weren't given a chance.

I also feel a bunch of people here don't understand how much AA gutted everything to push for a Win...I would give any new group some time walking into what had been done here.
It's less about criticism and more about the constant whining since they got here with just about 0 acknowledgement of how things are turning around.

..and I feel it's because, as much as people bitch zeke out for this...95% don't ever want to admit being wrong about anything, so barely any acknowledgement of the lineup they have been putting together, or admitting that nobody (but them?) gave this bullpen a chance, signing Ryu one year and Springer the next...
Fair points.

Speaking only for myself, I was gutted when shapkins took over and failed to go all-in either on contending or rebuilding. There is certainly an emotional element to sports fandom and their waffling and unwillingness to make more of an effort to capitalize on the roster they had still stings, for sure.

And part of the issue for me is with ownership, and nothing is changing there.

But aside from signing Ryu and Springer, for which shapkins deserves credit, they have not done a ton to inspire any confidence from me. We have a lot of talent, some incredible young bats, but I don't have faith in: a) shapkins pro talent evaluation/scouting; b) their ability/willingness to trade prospects to fill existing holes; and c) their ability to identify which prospects to trade vs. keep. I am also nearly certain that ownership is unwilling to pony up to try and compete with the big boys.

And in terms of things turning around... I guess I'd argue reality is somewhere between where the optimists are staking their ground, and where the pessimists are.
 

UWHabs

Well-known member
Myself, I don't have a problem with criticism thrown shatkins way, I also feel, though, that the love affair with AA was so strong that they weren't given a chance.

I also feel a bunch of people here don't understand how much AA gutted everything to push for a Win...I would give any new group some time walking into what had been done here.
It's less about criticism and more about the constant whining since they got here with just about 0 acknowledgement of how things are turning around.

..and I feel it's because, as much as people bitch zeke out for this...95% don't ever want to admit being wrong about anything, so barely any acknowledgement of the lineup they have been putting together, or admitting that nobody (but them?) gave this bullpen a chance, signing Ryu one year and Springer the next...

Yeah, like, I still don't give the current bullpen any credit, since it just feels like it's a bunch of no-names. But then again, when you dig down, that's how a lot of solid relievers seem to be these days - you don't need the "name" bullpen of Chapman-Britton-Green-Ottavino or whatever the Yankees have run the last few years for it to be above average. Basically we're going more the Oakland route - give me random arms who can pitch, even if you never heard of them before.

And yeah, I think the grudges still run deep for how badly it seemed like they managed things those first few years. But since then, it's definitely been a much better story. We're still definitely a few pieces away from being a true legit threat. And in a lot of ways, it kind of feels like this year would have been a nice year to push in, since there's not actually a huge competition in the AL (NL is another story with LAD+SD looking like powerhouses). But things are definitely starting to come together right now, so it's my and all of our hope that they don't mess it up, and will actually be able to invest to actually make that push.
 

Bleedsblue&white

Well-known member
It's not like I'm sure they are going to take us to a WS series win, but I'm also not dead set against it happening.

Basically, I feel the lineup is very close, it will come down to what arms they can acquire next season/
 
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