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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

axlsalinger

Well-known member
I'm pretty sure all GM's were aware that Groshans was (a) highly ranked on prospect lists, and (b) had 96 plate appearances above rookie ball before suffering a season ending injury early in 2019.
 

manny

Well-known member
No, you need a plus defensive catcher, and Jansen is one. So is McGuire. Kirk, not so much, and the jury is out on Moreno. I also like Riley Adams but I think he'll only go as far as his bat will carry him. Kirk can't really play any other position though so they'll stick with him at C as long as possible.
 

manny

Well-known member
I'm pretty sure all GM's were aware that Groshans was (a) highly ranked on prospect lists, and (b) had 96 plate appearances above rookie ball before suffering a season ending injury early in 2019.
What's the point of this? I'm sure all of the prospect ranking systems knew that Groshans had 96 PA above rookie ball as well. Yet they almost all still thought highly of him. It's quite possible that others in the industry, including GMs, did too.

Now he has 170 PA above rookie ball and the last 75 are bad. When would have been a better time to trade him, the offseason or now?
 

UWHabs

Well-known member
No, you need a plus defensive catcher, and Jansen is one. So is McGuire. Kirk, not so much, and the jury is out on Moreno. I also like Riley Adams but I think he'll only go as far as his bat will carry him. Kirk can't really play any other position though so they'll stick with him at C as long as possible.

Doesn't matter if he only hits .150. Jansen has been a net negative on the season. If Kirk can get that average up even to the .260+ mark, run a .340 OBP, with some power, that's probably enough to run him out there even if he struggles defensively.
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
What's the point of this? I'm sure all of the prospect ranking systems knew that Groshans had 96 PA above rookie ball as well. Yet they almost all still thought highly of him. It's quite possible that others in the industry, including GMs, did too.

Now he has 170 PA above rookie ball and the last 75 are bad. When would have been a better time to trade him, the offseason or now?
What is the point of acting like the Jays turned down Jacob deGrom in the off-season for him when you have no idea what they were offered?

Why doesn't every team trade their top 100 prospects? After all, some are going to bust. It's because some don't bust, and also because some don't bring in amazing offers. The less known about a player, the lower the offer, generally speaking.

If he's dropped from 35 to 50 this year, he could make that back with 3 good weeks.
 

manny

Well-known member
What is the point of acting like the Jays turned down Jacob deGrom in the off-season for him when you have no idea what they were offered?

Why doesn't every team trade their top 100 prospects? After all, some are going to bust. It's because some don't bust, and also because some don't bring in amazing offers. The less known about a player, the lower the offer, generally speaking.

If he's dropped from 35 to 50 this year, he could make that back with 3 good weeks.
Oh. I forgot that I was complaining they didn’t trade Groshans for deGrom. My bad. Shouldn’t talk about the merits of prospect swaps unless you’re in the boardroom. Good points.

I said a few posts back that we don’t know whether Groshans had much of a market before. So we actually agree there.

I actually suspect they were not offered anything because they’re too risk averse to trade a good prospect. To me, that is wrong, for the many reasons stated. Or wait, maybe I’m just irrationally angry that they didn’t trade Groshans for a future hall of famer. Can’t remember now.
 

manny

Well-known member
Doesn't matter if he only hits .150. Jansen has been a net negative on the season. If Kirk can get that average up even to the .260+ mark, run a .340 OBP, with some power, that's probably enough to run him out there even if he struggles defensively.
Yeah, if Jansen continues to be this bad, they'll probably have to move on. He's getting better though: .294/.415/.382 in the last month. Somewhere between that and his season totals and he can play.
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
Oh. I forgot that I was complaining they didn’t trade Groshans for deGrom. My bad. Shouldn’t talk about the merits of prospect swaps unless you’re in the boardroom. Good points.

I said a few posts back that we don’t know whether Groshans had much of a market before. So we actually agree there.

I actually suspect they were not offered anything because they’re too risk averse to trade a good prospect. To me, that is wrong, for the many reasons stated. Or wait, maybe I’m just irrationally angry that they didn’t trade Groshans for a future hall of famer. Can’t remember now.
Groshans may ultimately bust, but can we just agree that it's way too early to come to that conclusion, and also that we have no idea what they were offered?

I don't really understand this supposed urgency to trade away our best prospects, especially at a position of need. It's still a young team, without a long-term 3B. I have ZERO doubt that half the "GM's" on this board would have traded Bo Bichette for Spencer Turnbull a couple of years ago.

I mean, the Braves are ahead of the Jays in their development and a legit contender, but Alex Anthopoulos kept highly-regarded outfield prospects Christian Pache and Drew Waters ... and they still need an OF. So maybe he made a mistake, but Pache is going to be in this league a long time ... these guys still have value. In fact, they had another OF shoot up the prospect ranks this off-season with a lot of upside hype despite a limited track record in Michael Harris, and AA is so dumb, he didn't trade him either.
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
I will say, the C situation is more interesting right now, and worthy of discussion. They do have to make some decisions soon, and it's hard without a crystal ball. You could probably get a good pitcher if you package up Gabriel Moreno with a guy like Groshans, but is that a good move if he's a future stud C? I heard someone recently say they saw him play, and that he's "in the conversation" with guys like Rutschman.

Probable Trade Value:

Moreno
Kirk
Jansen
Adams
McGuire

I love Jansen's D, and I still kinda believe in the bat (at least to some extent), but at this point we have to conclude he's probably a backup or at best a 1B. The only guys with real trade value here are Moreno and Kirk. But those may be the 2 guys we want to keep, lol. Helluva tough call, I honestly don't know what the best option is.
 

zeke

Well-known member
Moreno rocketing up the ladder really makes you start to think about dealing Captain Kirk. Although maybe more likely we drop Janson after the season for pennies on the dollar and plan the Kirk-Moreno duo going forward.

Kirk hits well enough to DH imo.
 

manny

Well-known member
Kirk hits well enough to DH but you can’t really have your second C as the DH because then you have no backup C. So then you kind of have to carry 3 C on the roster, which is impossible with a 9-man bullpen (goddamnit 9 RP what is going on?)

Or maybe you can have your backup C as DH. Managers are afraid that there will be an injury and they’ll have to put the DH into the game and then the pitcher has to hit. But I don’t know, perhaps the low likelihood of this happening is outweighed by the benefit of a 9th (GD it) arm in the bullpen. Gibby used to do it with Zaun and Molina sometimes.
 

manny

Well-known member
I will say, the C situation is more interesting right now, and worthy of discussion. They do have to make some decisions soon, and it's hard without a crystal ball. You could probably get a good pitcher if you package up Gabriel Moreno with a guy like Groshans, but is that a good move if he's a future stud C? I heard someone recently say they saw him play, and that he's "in the conversation" with guys like Rutschman.

Probable Trade Value:

Moreno
Kirk
Jansen
Adams
McGuire

I love Jansen's D, and I still kinda believe in the bat (at least to some extent), but at this point we have to conclude he's probably a backup or at best a 1B. The only guys with real trade value here are Moreno and Kirk. But those may be the 2 guys we want to keep, lol. Helluva tough call, I honestly don't know what the best option is.
It would be a good luxury to ever have to worry about having too many C. I’ll sort of believe it when I see it. Jansen looks good, but not great unless he can sustain his improvement with the bat: McGuire is probably a backup. Kirk might not stick and doesn’t really have another position. Adams probably isn’t good enough defensively unless his bat is outstanding. Moreno is probably the best bet to be a first-division starter, but he’s not close enough to start trading guys away.

But yeah, they could have 5 MLB-quality starting catchers in a few years. Or they could have 5 guys not quite good enough, and they’re signing 41-year old Jeff Mathis.
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
Couple of quick points to add:

It's definitely fair to exclude Reese McGuire from the discussion, he's got virtually no trade value now and is most likely a backup C (at best) long-term. So he's not really in the Trade vs. Keep discussion, unless (maybe) you think his long-term value is an excellent defense backup C. And even those are a dime a dozen.

Also, with the Marcell Ozuna situation (plus the struggles of both Pache & Waters), it seems very likely AA trades a young OF shortly, just saying that the argument put forth is that he's a dummy for not trading one when their value was higher.
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
Also, Nate Pearson has made a few short starts in AAA with middling results (but lots of strikeouts).

He did have a good game last night, 5 IP, 3H, 3BB, 0R, 6K (87 pitches)
 

anne25

Well-known member
Stripling deserved better. Chatwood. needs to be glued to the bench for awhile.
 
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