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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Deckie007

Well-known member
Yeah pre-integrated baseball was essentially another sport. Especially once not only American Black players were allowed in, but also those from the Caribbean, South America, etc. Completely changed the skill level. I've always said records from that era aren't comparable, the game has changed so much.
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
Ruth hit 60 during the dead ball era in stadiums with outfield walls so far away you could barely see them over the horizon from home plate but "congrats", I guess.
Yup, great point. It's so much easier now in the modern era with all our "tiny" stadiums and "juiced" balls that outside of the steroid guys, a grand total one whole other guy beat Ruth's record to 61 ... and that happened just sixty one years ago.
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig
Also, this whole bit about Ruth doing it in defacto national park sized fields is just wrong. Polo Grounds was 258 feet to right field and the original layout to Yankee stadium was 298 to right field.

Forbes Field was famously massive but 410 foot right field power alley isn't crazy by modern standards. Forbes was 457 feet to left centre field, which isn't really an issue for a right handed power hitter
 

manny

Well-known member
I’m not really a Judge fan, but 60HR is an amazing accomplishment. The triple crown would also be incredible. (I’d still probably give the MVP to Ohtani.)

Anyway, this HR chase would be a lot of fun if the steroid era guys hadn’t sort of ruined it. Sammy Sosa hit 63, 64 and 66 and he didn’t even lead the league.
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig

If Scherzer got to stand on the mound and chuck mid 80's soft toss all but a few times a game, I'm sure he wouldn't know what an oblique is either.

It didn't become common to start throwing max effort, every pitch until the 20 years ago. The reason average velocity is up over the last few decades isn't that guys can throw much harder (though modern training techniques have added 2-3mph to a lot of guys), it's that max effort is expected every fucking pitch. Nolan Ryan is an excellent example. He could hit 101-102 max effort, but sat at 94-95 because the expectation for his era was that an elite starter gave you 7-8-9 innings per outing, and they expected to just finish the fucking thing. Had to pace themselves to do that. The expectation for a Nolan Ryan today would be to give max effort on every pitch, sit at 99-100 and give 6-7 innings.

Shit, with modern weighted ball and plyo training, Ryan might have hit 104-105 and sat at 102 for 6-7 innings. But he wouldn't sit at 100+ and finish the game in half of his starts.
 

WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou

Well-known member
Simple fix: reduce roster sizes so that teams don't have enough arms in the bullpen to go through a half-dozen pitching changes every game. That will force starting pitchers to pitch rather than just throw heat. They'll have to add a bit of art to the science and it will all be to the benefit of fans, who are sick and tired of watching 3 K's and a home run every 4 at bats.
 

manny

Well-known member
Lol. I didn’t mean to call Scherzer a wimp and wasn’t implying that these hoorah-old-timey-baseball takes have any merit. You can’t really compare across eras, to be honest. Cy Young would have probably also refused to play on a team with black people. I just thought the tweet was funny. The game is much less about individual egos now and more about maximizing the team’s chance to win. That’s a good thing.

Anyway, every era will have a few freaks like Ryan. But I definitely don’t remember him taking anything off his fastball, ever. He tried to throw as hard as he could and strike everyone out, as I recall. Ryan was still regularly throwing high-90s in his mid-40s.
 

manny

Well-known member
Simple fix: reduce roster sizes so that teams don't have enough arms in the bullpen to go through a half-dozen pitching changes every game. That will force starting pitchers to pitch rather than just throw heat. They'll have to add a bit of art to the science and it will all be to the benefit of fans, who are sick and tired of watching 3 K's and a home run every 4 at bats.
No. Reducing roster size will just mean even fewer position players. Eventually each team would have their 9-man batting order, one super-utility bench guy, and a couple of pitchers who practice taking reps in LF in case of emergency.

The game done changed. Might as we’ll accept it.
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig
Simple fix: reduce roster sizes so that teams don't have enough arms in the bullpen to go through a half-dozen pitching changes every game. That will force starting pitchers to pitch rather than just throw heat. They'll have to add a bit of art to the science and it will all be to the benefit of fans, who are sick and tired of watching 3 K's and a home run every 4 at bats.

A few things...

- off speed pitches don't actually cause less stress on the arm. They're thrown with the same arm action/force, it's the grip and release that causes the difference in spin & velo. What you're actually saying is that pitchers will have to choose between throwing more max effort pitches (risking injury and shortened careers) or throw softer....

- Which will lead to 2HR and 2K's every 4 AB instead of 3K and 1HR. Something you need to come to grips with (or don't and yell at clouds, whatever) is that the game you grew up watching is an inferior version of the sport from a competitiveness stand point. Slap hitters who stole 50 bases but couldn't take a walk to save their lives leading off, guys stealing 25 bags on 35-40 attempts, the hit & run, trying to slap the ball the other way as a hitting strategy etc, etc....all bad strategies for players trying to make the most positive impact, or teams trying to win the most games.
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig
No. Reducing roster size will just mean even fewer position players. Eventually each team would have their 9-man batting order, one super-utility bench guy, and a couple of pitchers who practice taking reps in LF in case of emergency.

The game done changed. Might as we’ll accept it.

Data has changed all of the major sports. When I was growing up (which is a while ago, but 25-30 years isn't that fucking long in the grand scheme of things) it wasn't expected for a point guard to be able to shoot. It was super, super common to see the "New York" style "point god" who wasn't a good scorer but had a slick handle, was a great passer and could run an efficient offence. Likewise, centres were just expected to be big. You didn't have to be able to run the court or do anything but rebound and challenge/block shots. These long 6'7-6'9 wing players that are the most desired player type in the league now were called "tweeners" and were generally not wanted at all. They tended to not be athletic enough to guard the hyper athletic 6'4-6'5 SG/SF's of the era and were too light to bang inside with the 6'8+, 240-250+ PF's of the era.

When most of us were growing up playing hockey, butterfly goalies were brand new and defencemen were big plugs for the most part. You took the guys who stickhandled the worst and jammed them on the blueline. You had maybe one guy who could handle the puck, 2 at most.

The sports are always going to move towards optimal strategy to win, that's the fucking point of the whole exercise.
 

UWHabs

Well-known member
And people just are better conditioned and hit things further. Judge is an anomaly, but take anyone in the Jays lineup and if the pitcher misses and lays one out on the plate, they can whack it 420 feet.

Plus it's a different world with free agency. Guys just have to survive for long enough to cash in, and they're set for life. So it doesn't matter if your arm falls off as long as you have cashed in. Heck, the most money Babe Ruth ever made would be the equivalent of like 1m in today's money. That's the reason we had the steroid era - people didn't care about swollen heads and shrunken testicles if they can make it rich.
 

Bleedsblue&white

Well-known member
With his recent retirement, you can compare Chara and Judge....both abnormally large for their sport but able to play it with precision as well as force.

I'll bet Manoah is able to do what he does with the baseball because it's more like spinning peach pit in those giants' hands.

Size matters.
 
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