OT: American Politics

[Altair]

Nice spin move bro.

Nowhere in the testimony of any crime ever are the eye witnesses asked to categorize the crime. That's up to legal professionals to do.

The GOP/Fox new war room has done an amazing job muddying the waters here.

 

[MindzEye]

You miss the point, intentionally or otherwise.

Unless if they were all lawyers with direct and deep knowledge of the bribery statutes, they're not qualified to make that determination.

 

[Habsy]

It's normal for you guys to regurgitate DNC/CNN talking points though.

 

[Habsy]

You miss the point, intentionally or otherwise.

Unless if they were all lawyers with direct and deep knowledge of the bribery statutes, they're not qualified to make that determination.

Care to bet this doesn't rise to bribery?

You know they used focus groups Mindz. Stop pretending that you don't know that.

 

[Altair]

Why don't they have two cameras, each centered on a witness? I feel for this person needing to move back and forth on live TV.

 

[Habsy]

Lindsay Graham will screw the senators running for president with this too. You guys really don't see the collateral damage coming. Myopically focusing on impeachment at all costs.

 

[leafman101]

Well if the impeachment won't change any American's opinions then there can't be collateral damage. Just another episode of the "News".

 

[Altair]

Well if the impeachment won't change any American's opinions then there can't be collateral damage. Just another episode of the "News".

It won't change americans minds, unless they are democrats running, then it will move the people against them.

Ministry of Truth says so.

 

[Habsy]

Oh there can be.

Ask the Senators that won't be able to campaign as the GOP will likely drag this out to at least late summer.

 

[Habsy]

I'm not kidding when I say I'm doubting this even passes the house to get to the senate.

 

[lecoqsportif]

Fact: Congress appropriated funds (its Constitutional mandate) to support the Ukrainian military.
Fact: Trump threatened to withhold the funding for personal political gain in a phone call with Zelensky. Everyone eventually came to understand what he wanted. Everyone.
Fact: The funds were subsequently provided after the whistle blower went public.

We’ve heard, and I’m not sure whether it’s been publicly confirmed, that the funds were actually frozen (from Treasury.)

It’s not clear as to why the funds were released. They would have “expired” in September 30th, perhaps denying Dotard with real or perceived leverage over Zelensky.

No matter, the first two facts are cause for impeachment. Dotard used US public resources and foreign policy, with corrupt intent, for purely personal gain.

 

[MindzEye]

Find the crime then I may agree.

- Campaign finance violations for requesting "something of value" from a foreign national. For it to be a felony, it would have to be proven that the thing asked for was worth more than $25,000. This is clearly related to the 2020 campaign, Giuliani claimed it to be about political research on 2020 opponents, and it would be easy to prove that far more than 25,000 would be required to investigate anything of this nature (and withholding 400 millie would absolutely suggest that it breaks the 25,000 threshold)

- Bribery is an obvious one, and miss me with the assessments of the eye witnesses, they're not legal professionals. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/201 There's the statute, have fun. The lynchpin here is similar to above, where there has to be "something of value" offered. Does the investigation count as "something of value".

- Extortion: "obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."

With "official right" defined by SCOTUS as: "the Government need only show that a public official has obtained a payment to which he was not entitled, knowing that the payment was received in exchange for official acts"

Probably obstructed justice about a dozen times as well, but nobody seems to give a fuck about that anymore .

 

[MindzEye]

Care to bet this doesn't rise to bribery?

You know they used focus groups Mindz. Stop pretending that you don't know that.

Thing is, I don't care if they used focus groups. I care if the acts reach the bar of the statute. I'm not one of those law talking guys, but my read of the statute suggests he did. I don't see the argument for him not attempting to received "something of value" in return. The investigation absolutely has an inherent dollar value, even if that's the only way that we're allowed to assign "value" here. Even if we're just making the argument that this is simply oppo research, surely at government of Ukraine rates, we're well over 25K, no?

 

[Habsy]

- Campaign finance violations for requesting "something of value" from a foreign national. For it to be a felony, it would have to be proven that the thing asked for was worth more than $25,000. This is clearly related to the 2020 campaign, Giuliani claimed it to be about political research on 2020 opponents, and it would be easy to prove that far more than 25,000 would be required to investigate anything of this nature (and withholding 400 millie would absolutely suggest that it breaks the 25,000 threshold)

- Bribery is an obvious one, and miss me with the assessments of the eye witnesses, they're not legal professionals. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/201 There's the statute, have fun. The lynchpin here is similar to above, where there has to be "something of value" offered. Does the investigation count as "something of value".

- Extortion: "obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."

With "official right" defined by SCOTUS as: "the Government need only show that a public official has obtained a payment to which he was not entitled, knowing that the payment was received in exchange for official acts"

Probably obstructed justice about a dozen times as well, but nobody seems to give a **** about that anymore .

So your going with accusations as convictions?

Look I get it. I really don't like this guy either (although obviously you guys hate him a classy notch above at least). I just really can't condemn someone to death for being a douchebag.

Just vote the fucker out. I think the real issue here is that people are very afraid he'll win again. That's what this is really all about.

 

[Altair]

Mindzeye demolished Habsy worse than Vindman burned Jim Jordan.

 

[Habsy]

Thing is, I don't care if they used focus groups. I care if the acts reach the bar of the statute. I'm not one of those law talking guys, but my read of the statute suggests he did. I don't see the argument for him not attempting to received "something of value" in return. The investigation absolutely has an inherent dollar value, even if that's the only way that we're allowed to assign "value" here. Even if we're just making the argument that this is simply oppo research, surely at government of Ukraine rates, we're well over 25K, no?

You don't care? You don't use focus groups to decide what to abuse him if, you use attorneys.

The optics are this is just another swing and miss.

As flimsy as you find it, there have been delays and Ukraine got more than before. Trump is inappropriate almost every time he speaks, he was one again. I don't see it as impeachable man, just too many conflicting opinions from the witnesses.

 

[MindzEye]

So your going with accusations as convictions?

oh ffs settle down. You asked for what crimes he committed, I politely obliged with 3 crimes he very likely committed.

Look I get it. I really don't like this guy either (although obviously you guys hate him a classy notch above at least). I just really can't condemn someone to death for being a douchebag.

Except I'm not, I'm condemning someone because he's very, very likely committed a chain of actual criminal offences, for decades now, that did not stop when he entered the white house. This isn't about me considering him to be a douche, this is about him committing actual crimes.

Just vote the fucker out. I think the real issue here is that people are very afraid he'll win again. That's what this is really all about.

Nope. It's about the very real damage that he's done, is doing, and will continue to do until he's out of office. He's committed more than enough crimes to be removed from office. Like I said 3 years ago, he's been dead to rights on emoluments since day one. Shit, he hasn't even tried to hide it.

 

[Habsy]

Mindzeye demolished Habsy worse than Vindman burned Jim Jordan.

You agree against me? Oh wow. That's new.

You agree with him which is absolutely fine. He didn't demolish anyone. It's just nuts how quick you people are to pitchfork. Scary really.

 

[Altair]

You agree against me? Oh wow. That's new.

You agree with him which is absolutely fine. He didn't demolish anyone. It's just nuts how quick you people are to pitchfork. Scary really.

 

[Habsy]

oh ffs settle down. You asked for what crimes he committed, I politely obliged with 3 crimes he very likely committed.

"Very likely"

Except I'm not, I'm condemning someone because he's very, very likely committed a chain of actual criminal offences, for decades now, that did not stop when he entered the white house. This isn't about me considering him to be a douche, this is about him committing actual crimes.

"Very, very likely"



I know you disagree but surely you see my problem with this.