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GDT: Habs @ New and Improved Leafs

MindzEye said:
Our best players have been our best players and better than opposition best players....and we've still lost.

Maybe it's more complicated than that and depth matters? How many times do we need to get beat by 4th liners before you clue in?
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Going scoreless when we can clinch is not being their best.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Going scoreless when we can clinch is not being their best.
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Except that's not what happened last year, is it? Matthews and Tavares combined to score 3 in a clinch game (6) and those 2 + Mo scored 4 over 2 clinch games at the back end of the series. Lightning top players scored 2 goals and their depth scored 3, Leafs lose.

When our best players out perform their best players and we still lose while our depth does literally nothing (or more commonly, does shit to the detriment of winning), we didn't lose because our best players didn't play well enough, it's because they got no fucking help.
 
Please pull up one of my posts where I've listed out all the game 6 and 7 performances in the Matty era, because I can't do it again.

Our elimination/clinch games are littered with a bunch of 2-1 or 3-0 losses against great and also shit opponents. That's nice and all with the OT loss in Game 6 last year, but Tavares was the one that really stepped up there (Willy too). Matty did have a goal, and Marner had nothing. Who tied the game for them? Kucherov. Who won it? Point. Then, in the Game 7 that followed, with a 2-1 pooper that saw zero goals from our forwards, just one goal from Rielly. Their big guys may have been silent too, but that's exactly my point - that's where Matty and Marner need to score a few and make it a 3-2 or 4-2 win. If not every year, then...just once??

The sticks go cold when we need them most, and it's the same thing every single year, which is such a tragic shame with this core.
 
You also need to get the bounces. There is some luck in hockey as well. I mean Nick Paul? Please.
 
I mean this is the guy that beat you. He shouldn't have. That's on the depth not the scorers.

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I wish you people would keep your criticisms consistent. This is exactly my point that you responded to earlier. The goal posts are constantly moving because you're working backwards from the "it's their fault we lost" standpoint without any actual analysis going into it. Just angsty fan bullshit.

The only people who actually do shit for us in those situations, and do so while out playing the oppositions best players, are not the reason we lose. How this isn't clear when it's the opposition depth beating us consistently amazes me.

Hockey is a team sport, this isn't Lebron vs KD in game 7 where one guy regularly takes over a game. The guys leading your team in scoring (by a lot) aren't the reason you're losing. All the fucking passengers doing nothing positive are.
 
Hey if you don't like his playoff game we'll take Matthews off your hands for some gritty gudpros
 
Habsy said:
I mean this is the guy that beat you. He shouldn't have. That's on the depth not the scorers.

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and against Montreal is was Corey Perry, Armia, and Kotkaniemi scoring 6 goals combined over the final 3 games of the series. Against Columbus Liam fucking Foudy scored against us in game 5 (after our best players carried us in game 4 and Auston's OT goal forced game 5). Against Boston it was Kuraly, Nordstrom, Johansson & Debrusk who scored in games 6 and 7. Mathews & Tavares scored 1 each over the final 2 games and of Boston's best players, Marchand was the only one to score over those 2 games. Again, our best players out produced their best players "when it mattered" and it wasn't enough because no one else did fuck all. Boston fans aren't complaining about Bergeron and Pastrnak doing fuck all in games 6 & 7....because their depth actually showed up to work both nights.
 
Oh you're preaching to the choir, when your top guys out produce their top guys? Its pretty shitty to say "they need to do more" while it's the bottom two lines getting owned by the opponents bottom two lines.
 
Habsy said:
Oh you're preaching to the choir, when your top guys out produce their top guys? Its pretty shitty to say "they need to do more" while it's the bottom two lines getting owned by the opponents bottom two lines.
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Matthews-Marner-Nylander-Tavares-Rielly: 15 goals
Kucherov-Stamkos-Point-Killorn(was 2nd in minutes)-Hedman: 8 goals

Everyfuckingone else: 9 goals
Tampa's everyone else: 15 goals

Why can't our stars just be better?
 
Final 3 games of the series

Matthews-Marner-Nylander-Tavares-Rielly: 8 goals
Kucherov-Stamkos-Point-Killorn(was 2nd in minutes)-Hedman: 4 goals

Everyfuckingone else: 0 goals
Tampa's everyone else: 5 goals

Seriously, what is wrong with our stars?
 
They don't score much in elimination games. Just told you that.

Sorry if I look to Matty and Marner and their combined $22M in Game 7 and not Engvall and Anderson.

I don't care what gets us to those elimination games. Once we're there, the best players have to take over so that a Nick Paul doesn't beat them. If we successfully shut down their big guys, great - that's mostly on the D and G. If we can't squeeze one goal out of the forwards, the buck stops at the Core 4.
 
MindzEye said:
But they outscore opposition best players, I just showed you that.

But, just keep moving your goal posts bud.
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What goal post did I move?

I've always said, the Core 4 needs to score to their ability in elimination games. They don't. You're busy talking about how TB's elites scored less and we got beat by a turd, and our fourth liners don't show up when it counts. That's cool, and that's true, but that's not the issue.

If Matty and Marner go to town in those final games and get a few goals, we'd have been past the first round at least a few times by now. If Willy and Tavares join them, probably every time. Fin.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I've always said, the Core 4 needs to score to their ability in elimination games.
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Which you conveniently change to "game 7" when cornered with evidence, every fucking time this conversation happens. Moving goalposts. "Game 7" and "elimination game" are not interchangeable terms bud.

You get on this whole elimination games bit "I don't care what happens to get them there" shit, but trust me if they were getting outed in 5 you would have a fucking seizure blaming them for not getting us to the "games that matter".

This granular bullshit is literally missing the forest for the sake of the trees. Our best players have been good to very good overall in the playoffs for the last few years, with a few exceptions. They have regularly outplayed the opposition best players and against quasi dynasty tampa, out scored their best by a fuckton in a 7 game series. When this happens and we still lose, the problem isn't them. It's the passengers.
 
MindzEye said:
Which you conveniently change to "game 7" when cornered with evidence, every fucking time this conversation happens. Moving goalposts. "Game 7" and "elimination game" are not interchangeable terms bud.

You get on this whole elimination games bit "I don't care what happens to get them there" shit, but trust me if they were getting outed in 5 you would have a fucking seizure blaming them for not getting us to the "games that matter".

This granular bullshit is literally missing the forest for the sake of the trees. Our best players have been good to very good overall in the playoffs for the last few years, with a few exceptions. They have regularly outplayed the opposition best players and against quasi dynasty tampa, out scored their best by a fuckton in a 7 game series. When this happens and we still lose, the problem isn't them. It's the passengers.
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First clue is Dubas constantly reorganizing the bottom of the lineup. He knows it's not the top that's the issue.
 
Habsy said:
First clue is Dubas constantly reorganizing the bottom of the lineup. He knows it's not the top that's the issue.
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In fairness, way easier to shuffle that than the 45-50 million at the top of the lineup.

But yeah, I think Dubas is aware that he's never gotten that depth mix right yet.
 
I will say one thing. The way our team is designed is top heavy in $$$ spent so you should expect more from the top compared to the bottom. Most other teams I believe are spending more in their bottom 6 and should be expecting better results vs a team spending less there.
 
MindzEye said:
In fairness, way easier to shuffle that than the 45-50 million at the top of the lineup.

But yeah, I think Dubas is aware that he's never gotten that depth mix right yet.
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Sure but you're talking about

Nylander
Matthews
Marner

Any of which could be moved in a second so really their salaries mean nothing. Teams would make room for one of them.

So Dubas really could have tweaked the top if he wanted. I think he didn't because they're not the problem instead of couldn't move them.
 
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