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OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

zeke said:
I was loud about the bench being terrible heading into last season, because we were relying on proven crap like Mitchell Brown and actually needed bench guys like Dick/Agbaji to be in the starting lineup. The only think i liked on the bench was Olynyk/Boucher, though was sure Boosh wouldn't play.

But this year I'm much more optimistic about the bench. These are a bunch of young lottery picks as the first wave off the bench - all the way through a 9 man rotation.
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I have no idea

who if any of the young players are any good
If Darko will use them and figure it out

But yeah, rather young unknown bad bench than an old shit one.

Still think our depth is garbage and if we get hurt its gonna be a bad time
 
I trust the FO enough that they didn't completely whiff on the 9th overall pick (who was ranked higher than that by many).

And Walter showed enough last year to expect a good bench season from this year imo.

Dick and Agbaji weren't near good enough to play near 30mpg and in the starting lineup most nights, but they both had flashes and are legit lottery talents and should look much better in smaller bench roles this year.

That's 9 deep with actual nba talent, even if there's no experience in the bench group.

And then guys like Shead and Mogbo are obviously limited but they showed some good stuff too last year. And i think the 2nd round pick they got this year might actually be better than both of those guys.

IMO this is much better than the usual collection of castoffs we've gone with recently.....and we should need the bench less than we've ever needed them now that we have 5 actual legit nba starters for the first time in many moons.


But yeah, injuries to the starters would be bad news.
 
Eh, my main bench concerns are pretty simple here:

- 20 yr old mid to late lottery pick rookies are almost always uniformly unplayable in anything but a bench support role. Expecting much from him this season is probably a mistake. A win for me this year with him would be if he grades out as an average NBA defender, and shows flashes of not being a NBA offensive black hole.

- Mogbo's D was solid last year, but he was so bad offensively.

- Dick didn't improve defensively at all last year. I've never really fallen in love with his offensive game like others have. I don't think he's a good enough shooter for the archetype and after watching it for 2 years now, I don't think his form works as a quick trigger NBA shooter and should have been re worked.

Walter I'm high on as a legit bench piece this year, Shead I think can tread water for the most part, and I like Mamu and Okai. That's the effective core of the bench this year imo.
 
zeke said:
I trust the FO enough that they didn't completely whiff on the 9th overall pick (who was ranked higher than that by many).
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Wouldn't have to whiff on him for him to be unplayable for a playoff team in his 1st year. Most picks in that range are. If we look at the 8-11 picks since 2018 that played a role (15+mpg) in their rookie season at 20 or younger

1 had a BPM over 0 (Cason Wallace, with a 0.1)
4 had a BPM over -2 (Shai, Hayes, Vassell, Wagner, Daniels, Hendricks)

There's a few others that were 22-24 (Bridges, Cam, Edey), and a few who didn't really play a role beyond garbage time minutes (Jarace, Toppin) but yeah that's about it. So 1 guy drafted in recent years was ready to walk into the league in a high bench or fringe starter spot and then a few other guys who walked in ready for mid or back of the bench type roles. About one per year and all of them were on tank teams.

The NBA is not a league that rookies tend to do well in at all.
 
A brief history of 20yr old rookie raps 1st rounders:

S.Barnes (#4): 35.4mpg, +0.9bpm
O.Anunoby (#23): 20.0mpg, -0.6bpm
J.Valanciunas (#5): 23.9mpg, -1.2bpm
D.Derozan (#9): 21.6mpg, -2.8bpm
J.Walter (#19): 21.2mpg, -3.0bpm ---> much better as the year went on
G.Dick (#13): 21.1mpg, -5.4bpm

21yr Olds

C.Villanueva (#7): 29.1mpg, -0.9bpm
E.Davis (#13): 24.6mpg, -0.9bpm
A.Bargnani (#1): 25.1mpg, -1.8bpm
T.Ross (#8): 17.0mpg, -2.5bpm
J.Poeltl (#9): 11.6mpg, -3.1bpm

19yr Olds

C.Bosh (#4): 33.5mpg, -0.8bpm
B.Caboclo (#20): 2.9mpg, -18.2bpm

18yr Olds

T.McGrady (#9): 18.4mpg, 0.6bpm


Most of those guys were decent rotation players.
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
CMR might be an NBA ready defender out of the box, but i suspect its very likely he is an absolute black hole offensively
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That's my expectation. I think he'll brick a bunch of open 3's because no one is going to guard him out there, and he's going to struggle against the length of the defenders around the paint.

There's some interesting tools in there and I wouldn't be surprised if he turned into a really good NBA player, but I don't think he's anywhere close to being able to hold a role on a good team yet.
 
MindzEye said:
That's my expectation. I think he'll brick a bunch of open 3's because no one is going to guard him out there, and he's going to struggle against the length of the defenders around the paint.

There's some interesting tools in there and I wouldn't be surprised if he turned into a really good NBA player, but I don't think he's anywhere close to being able to hold a role on a good team yet.
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I think he's going to find out what made him efficient in College wont work against most of the dudes assigned to him, and needs to find a passable jumper which he does not have yet, and will take time.
 
zeke said:
A brief history of 20yr old rookie raps 1st rounders:

S.Barnes (#4): 35.4mpg, +0.9bpm
O.Anunoby (#23): 20.0mpg, -0.6bpm
J.Valanciunas (#5): 23.9mpg, -1.2bpm
D.Derozan (#9): 21.6mpg, -2.8bpm
J.Walter (#19): 21.2mpg, -3.0bpm ---> much better as the year went on
G.Dick (#13): 21.1mpg, -5.4bpm

21yr Olds

C.Villanueva (#7): 29.1mpg, -0.9bpm
E.Davis (#13): 24.6mpg, -0.9bpm
A.Bargnani (#1): 25.1mpg, -1.8bpm
T.Ross (#8): 17.0mpg, -2.5bpm
J.Poeltl (#9): 11.6mpg, -3.1bpm

19yr Olds

C.Bosh (#4): 33.5mpg, -0.8bpm
B.Caboclo (#20): 2.9mpg, -18.2bpm

18yr Olds

T.McGrady (#9): 18.4mpg, 0.6bpm


Most of those guys were decent rotation players.
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Of the 20 yr olds, Scottie, OG, and Val. The other 3 weren't. Lower than -2.0 is a bad bench player.

1751407110353.png

Scottie and Val of course, went higher in the draft for a reason. OG, for reasons unknown to all went from not being able to shoot in the NCAA to immediately being able to shoot in the NBA. If CMB does that, yeah, he'll be good too.
 
So uhhh....is it too early to short the OKC dynasty pick?

Denver's new GM appears competent.

In the last 24 hours
- turned busted MPJ into Cam Johnson
- Turned busted Dario Saric into Valanciunas
- Signed Bruce Brown for the veteran minimum
- Just signed Hardaway Jr

C : Jokic - Val
PF: Gordon - Nnaji
SF: Cam - Brown - Watson
SG: Braun - Hardaway
PG: Murray - Strawther

and they're rumoured to be after Boucher. They took OKC to 7 with Jokic, Murray, Braun and nothing else.
 
MindzEye said:
So uhhh....is it too early to short the OKC dynasty pick?

Denver's new GM appears competent.

In the last 24 hours
- turned busted MPJ into Cam Johnson
- Turned busted Dario Saric into Valanciunas
- Signed Bruce Brown for the veteran minimum
- Just signed Hardaway Jr

C : Jokic - Val
PF: Gordon - Nnaji
SF: Cam - Brown - Watson
SG: Braun - Hardaway
PG: Murray - Strawther

and they're rumoured to be after Boucher. They took OKC to 7 with Jokic, Murray, Braun and nothing else.
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Presti can keep OKC contending until the next decade with all their draft capital
 
GEEMAN said:
Presti can keep OKC contending until the next decade with all their draft capital
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He can, but that Denver group isn't old either and they had no answer for Jokic and a busted ass supporting cast with no bench.

Presti's limiting factor here isn't going to be talent acquisition, it's going to be salary cap. He's done an awesome job, and has one more "easy" year before things get difficult. Chet and Jalen need extensions after next year. Chet he might get a deal on because the counting stats aren't there yet but Jalen is going to need a max rookie extension. Just those 3 will take up ~110 million for 26-27. Add Caruso and you're at 130. iHart and Dort have team options, so some flexibility there. But if they trigger both, that's 175.

Don't get me wrong, awesome problems to have. But I don't think they're going to be in a position where they just get to keep streaming 1st round picks out the door in trades to bring NBA talent in. When the big boy extensions start kicking in, they just won't have the cap room to do it. They're going to be in the same position as everyone else. Shai + Jalen will be making ~110 million combined by 2028. If they want a deep rotation (which seems to be the model here), it's going to mean keeping those picks and trading out salaries as they go instead of picks.

The time between then and now is when Denver is a motherfucker, and might close their dynasty window before it started. Jokic is still the best player on the planet by a lot. His organization has sucked for the last 2 years and forgot to put a team around him so we kinda forgot.
 
MindzEye said:
He can, but that Denver group isn't old either and they had no answer for Jokic and a busted ass supporting cast with no bench.

Presti's limiting factor here isn't going to be talent acquisition, it's going to be salary cap. He's done an awesome job, and has one more "easy" year before things get difficult. Chet and Jalen need extensions after next year. Chet he might get a deal on because the counting stats aren't there yet but Jalen is going to need a max rookie extension. Just those 3 will take up ~110 million for 26-27. Add Caruso and you're at 130. iHart and Dort have team options, so some flexibility there. But if they trigger both, that's 175.

Don't get me wrong, awesome problems to have. But I don't think they're going to be in a position where they just get to keep streaming 1st round picks out the door in trades to bring NBA talent in. When the big boy extensions start kicking in, they just won't have the cap room to do it. They're going to be in the same position as everyone else. Shai + Jalen will be making ~110 million combined by 2028. If they want a deep rotation (which seems to be the model here), it's going to mean keeping those picks and trading out salaries as they go instead of picks.

The time between then and now is when Denver is a motherfucker, and might close their dynasty window before it started. Jokic is still the best player on the planet by a lot. His organization has sucked for the last 2 years and forgot to put a team around him so we kinda forgot.
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Great post

I see Chet traded or given a ZION fuck you better stay healthy structured deal

I cant see Presti having him as the third max type deal

They will keep their picks and depart with vets in stages when money is prohibitive , I dont see them in the second apron

Out goes IHart as Proctor is ready to contribute and Wallace takes on a bigger role at guard when Dort bolts

The ammunition and treasure chest of picks and roster flexibility can keep the train rolling

Easily move players for future assets as money is much easier to move in the NBA

Worst case Presti whips out his shlong and points to the rafters if no future titles are won
 
MindzEye said:
He can, but that Denver group isn't old either and they had no answer for Jokic and a busted ass supporting cast with no bench.

Presti's limiting factor here isn't going to be talent acquisition, it's going to be salary cap. He's done an awesome job, and has one more "easy" year before things get difficult. Chet and Jalen need extensions after next year. Chet he might get a deal on because the counting stats aren't there yet but Jalen is going to need a max rookie extension. Just those 3 will take up ~110 million for 26-27. Add Caruso and you're at 130. iHart and Dort have team options, so some flexibility there. But if they trigger both, that's 175.

Don't get me wrong, awesome problems to have. But I don't think they're going to be in a position where they just get to keep streaming 1st round picks out the door in trades to bring NBA talent in. When the big boy extensions start kicking in, they just won't have the cap room to do it. They're going to be in the same position as everyone else. Shai + Jalen will be making ~110 million combined by 2028. If they want a deep rotation (which seems to be the model here), it's going to mean keeping those picks and trading out salaries as they go instead of picks.

The time between then and now is when Denver is a motherfucker, and might close their dynasty window before it started. Jokic is still the best player on the planet by a lot. His organization has sucked for the last 2 years and forgot to put a team around him so we kinda forgot.
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Mindz , what is your opinion the Bucks telling Dame to fuck off and stretching his cap hit over 5 years
 
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