OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

[MindzEye]

Whenever I watch IQ I feel like he's a day away from breaking out. He's so close to being real gud, but just can't put it together. But he scores well analytically anyway. RJ is the guy you try to upgrade on at this stage, rather than selling low on IQ. That's a player that has nothing more to give. I won't comment on Jak cuz heads explode whenever he's mentioned.

For tsn, this is basketball analyst, Preston Mizzi.

Analytic darling (within reason) who defends better than his reputation suggests, and is a passable starting lead guard. But yeah, I think there's more in there. Just really entering his prime now and making the playoffs + getting Kawhi is going to change the vibe around the team I think. They were young guys having fun before with minimal expectations. Everything has changed now though, it's time to lock in and develop expectations.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

The draft capital we're paying does piss me off under the circumstances, and I think it should be less, but it's not like I wouldn't do the deal over it.

 

[zeke]

Looking at the online chatter now that the trade is completed, I'm surprised but not surprised at the amount of people who think we're badly overpaying here. We didn't pay much at all compared to other trades for similar veteran impact players over the last few years:

Kevin Durant to Phoenix: 34 yrs old - 7.0 BPM before the trade - Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, 4 1sts'
1 yr younger than Kawhi with worse durability over the previous couple of season, but similar impact in the season prior to the trade. KD was still very much a Batman level scorer who had some tread left on his tires. But that package man, that's multiples of what we gave up in value.

Kevin Durant to Houston: 37 yrs old - 3.2 BPM before the trade - Jalen Green, Dillon Brooks, 10th overall, 5 2nd rounders
2 yrs older than Kawhi, slightly more durable over the few seasons prior but a clear, clear step down in quality. From a Batman to a good Robin offensively. This is much closer to what we gave up in value. Arguably pretty even, with Brooks and the 10th being enough to even prefer this.

Dame to Minnesota: 33 yrs old - 7.1 BPM before the trade - Jrue, Ayton, Camara, 1st, 2 swaps
2 yrs younger, but a small guard with similar durability concerns. Looked like an elite Batman nearing the end of his time as Bruce Wayne at the time. Jrue is a much better player than anything we gave up but I could see someone preferring our package to this. I'd disagree because I love Jrue, but sure.

Giannis to Miami: 32 yrs old - 9.5 BPM before the trade - Herro, Ware, JJJ, Jakucionis, 3 1sts + other draft stuff
3 yrs younger than Kawhi at the time of the trade, with similar durability concerns. Elite player who will probably remain elite or close for near term future, but the package given up was much higher than what we paid. Herro is the Ingram in this trade, but he's a much better version of what Ingram is supposed to be as a scorer. Ware-JJJ-Jak are all 3 better to much much better young players than Gravy. 3 1sts > 2 1sts. Now, Giannis is better and younger than Kawhi so all of that makes sense, but I don't think he's as much better than Kawhi as his trade package is than Kawhi's.

That's the beauty of the Ingram trade. He has just enough "talent" aura and scoring stats to make him dreamonable and tradeable for an actual good player like Kawhi. The ingram trade+contract couldn't have worked out more perfectly for us. Having a "talent" with a big contract is an absolute necessity to be able to trade for a guy like Kawhi.

And that's the exact reason why some dummies will think we paid a lot, because they think Ingram is actually good.

And then there's the other weirdos who care about a mid round pick in 2031, of course.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Analytic darling (within reason) who defends better than his reputation suggests, and is a passable starting lead guard. But yeah, I think there's more in there. Just really entering his prime now and making the playoffs + getting Kawhi is going to change the vibe around the team I think. They were young guys having fun before with minimal expectations. Everything has changed now though, it's time to lock in and develop expectations.

This is a good point too, that with a star of Kawhi's caliber added, we need to see what the trickle down/around impact is on the other guys.

 

[MindzEye]

The draft capital we're paying does piss me off under the circumstances, and I think it should be less, but it's not like I wouldn't do the deal over it.

But why?

2 1sts for a player of this calibre are below market rate by a fair bit. Especially when the argument could be made that moving Ingram's contract was going to require a 1st just for someone to be willing to take it on. Personally, I was expecting us to have to move him in a trade for a damaged goods contract like Sabonis to not have to give up picks to move him.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

That's the beauty of the Ingram trade. He has just enough "talent" aura and scoring stats to make him dreamonable and tradeable for an actual good player like Kawhi. The ingram trade+contract couldn't have worked out more perfectly for us. Having a "talent" with a big contract is an absolute necessity to be able to trade for a guy like Kawhi.

And that's the exact reason why some dummies will think we paid a lot, because they think Ingram is actually good.

And then there's the other weirdos who care about a mid round pick in 2031, of course.

Is LA really doing the deal because they think Ingram is good though? Seems like they had to make the trade and are just getting the best they can. I can't think they're happy about this or think they got better.

 

[zeke]

I don't see any big jump coming from IQ - people just misread what he is. He's a good 3+D guy, who also happens to be able to handle and distribute the ball at a good level too. People miss the 'D' part because it's a more specific defensive skillset - the quicks to stay in front of most other quick lead guards. We don't need him to be the lead or even the 2nd lead ballhandler on the team with Scottie and Kawhi here, so the fact that you don't want him to be a lead ballhandler isn't all that important imo.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

But why?

2 1sts for a player of this calibre are below market rate by a fair bit. Especially when the argument could be made that moving Ingram's contract was going to require a 1st just for someone to be willing to take it on. Personally, I was expecting us to have to move him in a trade for a damaged goods contract like Sabonis to not have to give up picks to move him.

Mostly because of the crazy circumstances surrounding this trade, that LA shouldn't walk away with the same deal they got before the trade got held up by the news of the investigation.

 

[MindzEye]

This is a good point too, that with a star of Kawhi's caliber added, we need to see what the trickle down/around impact is on the other guys.

How is this going to impact Scottie's development? We're literally taking a young guy who looks primed for a breakout, and putting the still elite best possible version of him on the same team with Scottie for him to learn from.

Yeah, everyone else is going to benefit from the additional professional expectations....but man, it's hard to draw up a better development plan for Scottie.

 

[zeke]

Is LA really doing the deal because they think Ingram is good though? Seems like they had to make the trade and are just getting the best they can. I can't think they're happy about this or think they got better.

Yeah they need to take a big contract on to make the trade work, and i betcha they think he's better than RJ and IQ and preferred taking BI.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

How is this going to impact Scottie's development? We're literally taking a young guy who looks primed for a breakout, and putting the still elite best possible version of him on the same team with Scottie for him to learn from.

Yeah, everyone else is going to benefit from the additional professional expectations....but man, it's hard to draw up a better development plan for Scottie.

Oh I have no doubts about the impact on him. I'm curious how RJ, IQ, and Jake will look now with Kawhi on the court.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Yeah they need to take a big contract on to make the trade work, and i betcha they think he's better than RJ and IQ and preferred taking BI.

Maybe, but also possible the Raps wouldn't part with the other two and insisted it be Ingram.

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

Looking at the online chatter now that the trade is completed, I'm surprised but not surprised at the amount of people who think we're badly overpaying here. We didn't pay much at all compared to other trades for similar veteran impact players over the last few years:

Kawhi to Toronto: 35 yrs old - 8.0 BPM before the trade - Ingram, Dick, 2 1sts,

Kevin Durant to Phoenix: 34 yrs old - 7.0 BPM before the trade - Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, 4 1sts'
1 yr younger than Kawhi with worse durability over the previous couple of season, but similar impact in the season prior to the trade. KD was still very much a Batman level scorer who had some tread left on his tires. But that package man, that's multiples of what we gave up in value.

Kevin Durant to Houston: 37 yrs old - 3.2 BPM before the trade - Jalen Green, Dillon Brooks, 10th overall, 5 2nd rounders
2 yrs older than Kawhi, slightly more durable over the few seasons prior but a clear, clear step down in quality. From a Batman to a good Robin offensively. This is much closer to what we gave up in value. Arguably pretty even, with Brooks and the 10th being enough to even prefer this.

Dame to Minnesota: 33 yrs old - 7.1 BPM before the trade - Jrue, Ayton, Camara, 1st, 2 swaps
2 yrs younger, but a small guard with similar durability concerns. Looked like an elite Batman nearing the end of his time as Bruce Wayne at the time. Jrue is a much better player than anything we gave up but I could see someone preferring our package to this. I'd disagree because I love Jrue, but sure.

Giannis to Miami: 32 yrs old - 9.5 BPM before the trade - Herro, Ware, JJJ, Jakucionis, 3 1sts + other draft stuff
3 yrs younger than Kawhi at the time of the trade, with similar durability concerns. Elite player who will probably remain elite or close for near term future, but the package given up was much higher than what we paid. Herro is the Ingram in this trade, but he's a much better version of what Ingram is supposed to be as a scorer. Ware-JJJ-Jak are all 3 better to much much better young players than Gravy. 3 1sts > 2 1sts. Now, Giannis is better and younger than Kawhi so all of that makes sense, but I don't think he's as much better than Kawhi as his trade package is than Kawhi's.

There were people in the American media who said we overpaid the first time around because we gave up all 2nd team nbaer DD for injured Kawhi.

 

[Preston]

I don't see any big jump coming from IQ - people just misread what he is. He's a good 3+D guy, who also happens to be able to handle and distribute the ball at a good level too. People miss the 'D' part because it's a more specific defensive skillset - the quicks to stay in front of most other quick lead guards. We don't need him to be the lead or even the 2nd lead ballhandler on the team with Scottie and Kawhi here, so the fact that you don't want him to be a lead ballhandler isn't all that important imo.

I would hope/think his efficiency would improve playing less of a role but I guess that's more of a product of his environment than an actual jump from him

 

[MindzEye]

Mostly because of the crazy circumstances surrounding this trade, that LA shouldn't walk away with the same deal they got before the trade got held up by the news of the investigation.

I think that's being way overblown though, or more accurately, what those circumstances mean to the trade. All of that fuckery is the only reason he's available in the first place, and the price we paid just isn't high for that type of player. The circumstances have done exactly what they could have. This idea of going back to the Clippers and trying to bend them over further just leaves you open to them saying fuck it and keeping him to spite Kawhi and us. A few mid round 1sts 5 and 7 years from just isn't worth missing this type of opportunity.

 

[MindzEye]

Oh I have no doubts about the impact on him. I'm curious how RJ, IQ, and Jake will look now with Kawhi on the court.

More time, more space, more experience in big games after top teams that feel important. No more being the underdog against top teams.

Yeah, what growth we're going to get out of this group is coming soon and I don't think the front office is going to be too patient with anyone lagging behind.

 

[Preston]

Yeah, seems to me that the raps got the "I'll only sign an extension in Toronto" discount. They were bidding against themselves and tbh the price reflects that. The panicking over the 2074 1st round pick is funny to me.

 

[zeke]

the overpay thing is funny because I mostly feel like we just added Kawhi for free. honestly not a single asset we gave up do i actually think is worth much.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

I think that's being way overblown though, or more accurately, what those circumstances mean to the trade. All of that fuckery is the only reason he's available in the first place, and the price we paid just isn't high for that type of player. The circumstances have done exactly what they could have. This idea of going back to the Clippers and trying to bend them over further just leaves you open to them saying fuck it and keeping him to spite Kawhi and us. A few mid round 1sts 5 and 7 years from just isn't worth missing this type of opportunity.

I agree with all that. If I were the Raps though, I would have made an attempt to bend them over and dare them to try to back out after all this, because I doubt they would want to keep a disgruntled Kawhi just as a fuck you to him and us. I think they saw the writing on the wall that it was game over for that roster and time to rebuild. And hey, maybe the Raps tried, I don't know. Like I said, I'm not in any way advocating that the deal still wasn't worth making, just that fuck the Clipps and them getting the same package that was set before all this came out.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

the overpay thing is funny because I mostly feel like we just added Kawhi for free. honestly not a single asset we gave up do i actually think is worth much.

Oh the player components of the trade are absolutely like getting him for free. Grady sucks and Ingram is whatever.

And I guess that's actually bolstering the case for them to get the picks they did.

The part that bugs me is that the Raps are historically amazing at the draft table, so keeping even one of those firsts could be another CMB or something that we could add.