• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

GDT #27: 16/11/2021 - Interesting Week

Cute way to just outright omit Tavares’s 47 goal season? I like it.

I didn't omit fuck all (Johnny's 47 goals is included in the .98ppg number...if I wanted to be a cherry picking dick I would have gone with the .93ppg he's been since Panarin signed in NYR). I just compared apples to apples, the same time span for each guy there.
 
Didn’t you assign much more value to goals when it came to the Matty and Marner comparison?

It's weird because you keep acting like Panarin doesn't score goals or something....

Career:

Panarin - .38gpg
Tavares - .42gpg

This is just an awful attempt at a comparison by you man.

Matthews - .59gpg
Marner - .29 gpg
 
In the two years before their UFA deals:

Tavares 65 goals (in fewer games)
Panarin 55 goals

In the year before their UFA deals:

Tavares 37 goals
Panarin 28 goals

In the first year of their new deals:

Tavares 47 goals
Panarin 32 goals (paced to 38)

Since their UFA deals:

Tavares .46 gpg
Panarin .41 gpg

Now, I think they both deserve it, but if goal scoring and center-ness are the two major leverage points and trump total points, Tavares had him beat when he went UFA and has been better since the new deal, so I don’t see the argument that Tavares didn’t earn the contract both before or after.
 
Since their UFA deals:

Tavares .46 gpg
Panarin .41 gpg

Okay...Tavares is slightly better as a goal scorer than Panarin, you got me.


You're really out here trying to say that because people (myself included) think that Matthews is worth his contract because he's a historically elite goal scorer and compared with Marner scores goals at literally double the rate, that Tavares gets to piggyback on that logic because he scores (including a career year over 3 years ago now...) .05 gpg (4 goals per 82 game season) more than Panarin?

I mean, this is the argument? You're trying to draw a parallel between a comparison with a goal scoring gap of ~25 goals per 82 games and 4 goals per 82 games? That's basically a whole Mitch Marner's worth of difference vs a Travis Boyd of difference

If this is a Panarin v Tavares discussion...well fuck, Panarin out produces Tavares significantly overall and is one of the most productive players in the league period. It's not remotely close enough for a couple of goals and playing centre to cover the gap.

If this is an Auston v Mitch discussion. They produce virtually identical point scoring rates (1.14 v 1.14 from 18-19 to now) except Auston is a centre and scores twice as often as Mitch (132 goals to 66, and in fewer games).

Tavares isn't worth his money. That doesn't mean he's not really good. Just that he's not top 10 in the NHL good.
 
Last edited:
Just saying that going into negotiations, Tavares was coming off a great goal scoring season, significantly better than Panarin. In the first year after, he hit a goal total that crushes anything Panarin ever accomplished. He also plays center. Panarin had a couple of mega point seasons after the deal that pump his averages up significantly over a smaller body of work. This year, they’re doing about the same but Tavares with 2x the goals. I don’t see one deserving that contract any more than the other.
 
At the end of the day I'd much rather have Matthews, Marner and Tavares than whatever else we could realistically get for that $33 mill.

Technically sure, you could look at it and say "Marner is the 6th best winger in the league, not the 3rd so he should be making 12.4% of the cap instead of 13.4", but practically it is splitting hairs. If he made 12.4% ($9.8 mill at the time he signed), he'd be the 7th highest paid winger, and 15th highest paid forward in the league, which if he is currently paid on the high end of his value, is the low end of his value.

I get the argument that other elite players signed for less and $1 mill saved here and there would help elsewhere. I don't buy the argument that Marner isn't really an elite all around player, or isn't worth the money though.

According to Dom's Model, Marner provides almost $14 mill/ year in value:
E7aIH-RWUAI16AP


He is easily among the top 10 offensive players in the league, and he is also really good defensively (top 15 percentile), plays tough minutes, all special teams, and is still only 24 and just hitting his prime now. He's certainly in the argument for best winger in the league in any given year. Last year he was a first team all star.

The list of players that have put up the scoring numbers Marner has at his age is so small. In the cap era Marner and Matthews are 2 of 9 forwards to score 1+ ppg in their first 6-7 seasons before they turned 24 years old. The others are Crosby, McDavid, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos and Draisaitl. Not only is Marner a top 5-10 offensive player now, he is likely a top 5-10 offensive player of his generation. That list is all first ballot hall of famers. Guys like Marchand and Panarin are elite, but they weren't as good as Marner at 24. Kucherov broke out by then, but even his ELC years weren't as good as Marner's.

What the hell are you doing with that money that is better for this team? Nothing.
 
Are we going to outright ignore playoff performances before declaring a player is worth $14 million/year?

Just wondering what the barometer is nowadays.
 
Are we going to outright ignore playoff performances before declaring a player is worth $14 million/year?

Just wondering what the barometer is nowadays.
We have short memories here. When they play like this in the regular season it's hard to remember how mad we were in the playoffs in their last two series. Even I'm getting sucked into it after going into this year saying "I'm going to enjoy the fuck out of this because it is electric entertainment, but any further judgment on the team will come from the playoffs. Prove it to me and then I'll shift my thought process."
 
If Nylander can shut up all the boomers, it's not really that hard to imagine Mitch and Matthews putting minds to rest eventually. The "prove it to me" thing is totally fair.
It would be a very weird, unique situation throughout NHL history if they continued to shit the bed. So yes, odds certainly favor it but this is the Leafs and they have trained me to be cynical. Still love watching them because it may be the best entertainment on TV for 82 games a year and I will not take this shit for granted, but I'm not gonna overreact to anything they do in the season until they accomplish something in the playoffs.
 
What's fair market value on a contract and will they ever not be loser bitches are just two different conversations.

Still have to pay loser bitches. Do you have to trade them for Kawhi is another question.
 
It would be a very weird, unique situation throughout NHL history if they continued to shit the bed. So yes, odds certainly favor it but this is the Leafs and they have trained me to be cynical. Still love watching them because it may be the best entertainment on TV for 82 games a year and I will not take this shit for granted, but I'm not gonna overreact to anything they do in the season until they accomplish something in the playoffs.
Criticism for the playoff no shows is warranted but On some level you gotta just enjoy the ride or else what’s the point of being a fan?

Since 1990 only 7 leafs players have eclipsed 80 points in a season and 3 of those guys are on the roster today. We’re not getting closer to anything by dumping these guys.
 
What's fair market value on a contract and will they ever not be loser bitches are just two different conversations.

Still have to pay loser bitches. Do you have to trade them for Kawhi is another question.
Well, you don’t have to, but you don’t know who’s a loser bitch and who’s not until long after you’ve committed to pay someone.

The core 4 all become the league’s envy if they win the cup this year.
 
Criticism for the playoff no shows is warranted but On some level you gotta just enjoy the ride or else what’s the point of being a fan?

Since 1990 only 7 leafs players have eclipsed 80 points in a season and 3 of those guys are on the roster today. We’re not getting closer to anything by dumping these guys.
Yup. Dumping them would be very very stupid. Gotta let it ride and hope that some of the most talented players on the planet figure out how to play hockey in a particular month of the year. Seems like a better bet to make than trading these guys for spare parts.
 
Last edited:
Yup. Dumping them would be very very stupid. Gotta let it ride and hope that some of the most talented players on the planet figure out how to play hockey in a particular month of the year. Seems like a better bet to make than trading these guys for spare parts.
They don’t forget how to play for a month. The problem is they haven’t learned how to play under the new rules for that month.
 
Back
Top