LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
Oh, and there's no more PK to give you the mobility and puck moving you need, so it's going to be a rough year watching that corps at work, imo.
Is the Leafs defense core "putrid" per THN?
- Thread starter BeLeafer
- Start date
LeafGm
Well-known member
I'm going to be very interested to see how Shea Weber looks without Roman Josi to move the puck up the ice for him. He's still a big name, and he puts up a lot of points, but a lot of metrics seem to indicate he's been falling off pretty noticeably the past few years. If he isn't up to at least filling PK's shoes, that would be a major blow to the Habs defense.
There would be a lot of pressure on Jeff Petry and soon-to-be 38 year-old Andrei Markov. Then the rest of their guys range from mediocre-to-trash, if Sergachev doesn't emerge as a legitimate option for them this year.
....anyway, back to the Leafs.
Like everyone else has said, "putrid" is a ridiculous description for them. There's a lot of uncertainty, but the bones of a good defense are there. Even if you don't think Rielly's a stud #1 defenseman yet, his progression year to year, and the way he rose quickly up the ranks for both the World Championship & World Cup teams makes it pretty clear that he is a top-pairing defenseman. Jake Gardiner is criminally underrated, but right up there too.
After that is where the question marks start to appear. Is Nikita Zaitsev a good top-4 defenseman in the NHL? His play in the KHL, and the early returns in the pre-season & World Cup are promising. I like Connor Carrick---he's got a physical edge, to go along with being a great scorer at the AHL level. Is he just a young TJ Brennan though, or can he translate that over to the NHL? Can Frankie Corrado be a useful everyday player for you?
After those guys, I have no questions about our other three defensemen: Martin Marincin, Roman Polak and Matt Hunwick. Marincin, because I don't have any doubt he is what he appeared to be last year, and what the numbers have said he is since he got to the NHL: an extremely unspectacular, but very dependable possession defenseman who can play up and down the lineup without hurting you.
And then Polak & Hunwick because...well...they're god-awful. I guess the only question is how much Babcock plays them. If we see one or both in the lineup on a regular basis, that will definitely hurt.
There would be a lot of pressure on Jeff Petry and soon-to-be 38 year-old Andrei Markov. Then the rest of their guys range from mediocre-to-trash, if Sergachev doesn't emerge as a legitimate option for them this year.
....anyway, back to the Leafs.
Like everyone else has said, "putrid" is a ridiculous description for them. There's a lot of uncertainty, but the bones of a good defense are there. Even if you don't think Rielly's a stud #1 defenseman yet, his progression year to year, and the way he rose quickly up the ranks for both the World Championship & World Cup teams makes it pretty clear that he is a top-pairing defenseman. Jake Gardiner is criminally underrated, but right up there too.
After that is where the question marks start to appear. Is Nikita Zaitsev a good top-4 defenseman in the NHL? His play in the KHL, and the early returns in the pre-season & World Cup are promising. I like Connor Carrick---he's got a physical edge, to go along with being a great scorer at the AHL level. Is he just a young TJ Brennan though, or can he translate that over to the NHL? Can Frankie Corrado be a useful everyday player for you?
After those guys, I have no questions about our other three defensemen: Martin Marincin, Roman Polak and Matt Hunwick. Marincin, because I don't have any doubt he is what he appeared to be last year, and what the numbers have said he is since he got to the NHL: an extremely unspectacular, but very dependable possession defenseman who can play up and down the lineup without hurting you.
And then Polak & Hunwick because...well...they're god-awful. I guess the only question is how much Babcock plays them. If we see one or both in the lineup on a regular basis, that will definitely hurt.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
You know Babs loves his Hunny.
The only way we don't see him play a prominent role is if Lou moves him and thus removes the option.
The only way we don't see him play a prominent role is if Lou moves him and thus removes the option.
leafman101
Well-known member
The D isn't really suspect. Its not complete, but the top end is good and reliable and they have decent depth. Rielly and Gardiner are established 20+ minute dmen in the NHL at this point. Good ones too. They score 35+ points and are elite possession drivers. Plus they are 22 and 26 and have been getting better every year. Rielly and Gardiner have been good top 3 defensemen in the NHL for a while now. Rielly looked ****ing awesome at the World Cup.
You could say Zetisev still has a lot to prove. He has a lot to prove. But this guy was relied on more than Markov at the World Cup, was one of the best defensemen at the world championships and in the KHL. He's been a good, minute eating defensemen at every level. And that hasn't changed as he's moved up levels.
Marincin/Hunwick is a solid bottom pair. Both guys have put up good numbers with sheltered minutes. Marincin has looked like might be more than that. Hunwick isn't, but he was a solid bottom pairing defensemen until last year. Its not the best bottom pair in the league, but its not going to hurt you.
Carrick/Corrado/Polak is fine enough depth. Guys like Valiev, Loov, Dermott, Neilson and maybe Holl have legitimately earned a cup of coffee. There is plenty of depth.
They could use another top 4 defensemen, but overall their defense is actually kinda good.
You could say Zetisev still has a lot to prove. He has a lot to prove. But this guy was relied on more than Markov at the World Cup, was one of the best defensemen at the world championships and in the KHL. He's been a good, minute eating defensemen at every level. And that hasn't changed as he's moved up levels.
Marincin/Hunwick is a solid bottom pair. Both guys have put up good numbers with sheltered minutes. Marincin has looked like might be more than that. Hunwick isn't, but he was a solid bottom pairing defensemen until last year. Its not the best bottom pair in the league, but its not going to hurt you.
Carrick/Corrado/Polak is fine enough depth. Guys like Valiev, Loov, Dermott, Neilson and maybe Holl have legitimately earned a cup of coffee. There is plenty of depth.
They could use another top 4 defensemen, but overall their defense is actually kinda good.
leafman101
Well-known member
And if Reilly turns out like it looks like he is turning out then the d goes from actually kinda good to actually kinda awesome.
Preston_Mizzi
Banned
Gardiner and Rielly are two top pair guys.
Marincin, IMO, is a 2nd pair guy AT LEAST defensively. He may be a bit of an offensive black hole which is an issue in itself, but most claim that the Leafs d are bad DEFENSIVELY.. Marincin may be the best in his own end, perhaps with the exception of Gardiner.
Between Carrick and Zaitsev, I'm pretty confident one of them can fill a top 4 role as well. I mean, how difficult is it to play with Gardiner after all? The d isn't exactly all world, but it doesn't have to be in a Babcock system, as we saw last year. He historically relies heavily on his top pair, and the bottom four are protected heavily and have unreal possession numbers. If Rielly and Marincin can do what they did together last year, their d is probably the strength of the team. Like mbow said, I'm more worried about the forwards. By a longshot.
Ideally one of the rhd become good enough to play top pair, but I just don't see that as a very likely scenario, at least defensively. That's just asking far too much. We saw Marincin fill that role just fine last year. Not ideal, but he's a placeholder until someone else comes around. He did a better job than anyone we've seen in the last what, 5 years or so? Maybe more?
Marincin, IMO, is a 2nd pair guy AT LEAST defensively. He may be a bit of an offensive black hole which is an issue in itself, but most claim that the Leafs d are bad DEFENSIVELY.. Marincin may be the best in his own end, perhaps with the exception of Gardiner.
Between Carrick and Zaitsev, I'm pretty confident one of them can fill a top 4 role as well. I mean, how difficult is it to play with Gardiner after all? The d isn't exactly all world, but it doesn't have to be in a Babcock system, as we saw last year. He historically relies heavily on his top pair, and the bottom four are protected heavily and have unreal possession numbers. If Rielly and Marincin can do what they did together last year, their d is probably the strength of the team. Like mbow said, I'm more worried about the forwards. By a longshot.
Ideally one of the rhd become good enough to play top pair, but I just don't see that as a very likely scenario, at least defensively. That's just asking far too much. We saw Marincin fill that role just fine last year. Not ideal, but he's a placeholder until someone else comes around. He did a better job than anyone we've seen in the last what, 5 years or so? Maybe more?
Preston_Mizzi
Banned
The beauty is we know we're not going to see any Exelby's or third pairing guys that are guaranteed to get absolutely dominated. The 2nd and 3rd pair are almost sure to be excellent possession-wise unless they rely on Hunwick and Polak too heavily. But even then, Hunwick isn't horrible as a third pair guy; I think Polak kind of is, but he's still not on the Exelby level. Regardless, it's that top pair that will struggle and be over-matched at times. The other guys will excel in their roles. It's nice to be confident that two thirds of the d will be really really good. It isn't easy to fix that top pair, but like I said, it was passable with Marincin there last year so hopefully that continues.
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BeLeafer
Well-known member
Yeah, there's lots of question marks on the Leafs blueline, but the answers will determine whether the blueline is a strength or merely adequate.
Can Rielly become a stud #1 or at least progress on that trajectory this season?
Is Zaitsev ready for a top four role?
Will Marincin build on last season's progress?
Can Carrick et al push Hunwick and Polak into bottom pair/depth roles?
There's a good chance the answers to these questions will be positive. I'm very confident about Rielly and Zaitsev, not so much about Marincin and the other young blueliners. The latter will dictate how much of Hunwick and Polak we'll see. They definitely weaken the blueline but Babcock's coaching can mitigate the damage.
Can Rielly become a stud #1 or at least progress on that trajectory this season?
Is Zaitsev ready for a top four role?
Will Marincin build on last season's progress?
Can Carrick et al push Hunwick and Polak into bottom pair/depth roles?
There's a good chance the answers to these questions will be positive. I'm very confident about Rielly and Zaitsev, not so much about Marincin and the other young blueliners. The latter will dictate how much of Hunwick and Polak we'll see. They definitely weaken the blueline but Babcock's coaching can mitigate the damage.
Artnes
Well-known member
Im pretty hopeful for Zaitsev to play top 4 minutes. He played heavy minutes in the World Cup against some of the best players in the world and didnt look out of place at all.
He will go through the adjustment period but so far he looks quite comfortable on the smaller ice
He will go through the adjustment period but so far he looks quite comfortable on the smaller ice
leafman101
Well-known member
Speaking of Leafs dmen... Pronman put out his top 25 players under 25 list. It does not include anyone with under 25 NHL games so no Nylander, Marner and Matthews . Reilly was ranked the 3rd best defenseman behind Ekblad and Faulk.
http://insider.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/17723156/nhl-top-25-25-players-2016-17-season
http://insider.espn.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/17723156/nhl-top-25-25-players-2016-17-season
zeke
Well-known member
I just find it a weird statement because this is the first time in a long time I've actually been happy with the state of our dcorps. Super mobile, super talented, super young....with only 2 crappyish vets who aren't unplayable and will be gone by the deadline anyways.
Even last year I was a bit annoyed heading in that Hunwick and Polak were mainstays, and this year it looks like they're probably not.
But again this all really comes down imo to Zaitsev, Marincin, and Carrick. If they're good, then suddenly this dcorps doesn't only not look putrid, but it starts lookig pretty damn good.
I mean even the idea that "the leafs don't have four top-4 dmen, so they're bad" doesn;t even really work - look around the league and tell me how many teams you see with 4 legit top-4 dmen.
Even last year I was a bit annoyed heading in that Hunwick and Polak were mainstays, and this year it looks like they're probably not.
But again this all really comes down imo to Zaitsev, Marincin, and Carrick. If they're good, then suddenly this dcorps doesn't only not look putrid, but it starts lookig pretty damn good.
I mean even the idea that "the leafs don't have four top-4 dmen, so they're bad" doesn;t even really work - look around the league and tell me how many teams you see with 4 legit top-4 dmen.
UWHabs
Well-known member
It depends how you see the guys. By the way, the below is not necessarily my view, just pointing out what a pessimist might see them as.
Rielly looks to be on the verge of breaking out, but he still hasn't quite proven himself as a top guy yet. So if you look at only what he's proven, you might call him a #2 guy.
Gardiner also has some potential, and isn't really a stud offensively or defensively (hurr durr -15). Looks like a decent #3-4 guy.
Zaitsev is an unproven guy. I mean, at one point Emelin was the best defenseman not in the NHL, and he's basically turned into a #6 guy.
As for everyone else? If you're not a Leafs fan, I doubt anyone could even name anyone else on your back-end. And really, unless if you're actually a die-hard Leafs fan, even most of them would have trouble naming anyone else on your blueline.
So by that. you've got maybe a #2, a #4, and a bunch of #6 guys. If you look at it that way, then yeah, your D could be classified as putrid.
However, if you think Rielly is a #1, Gardiner is a #3, Zaitsev is a #4, and the rest of the depth can be good #5-6 guys, then you're basically only missing a #2 guy overall, which is really not that bad. That's basically the shape the Habs are in right now (a #1, some #3/4, and some #5/6).
Rielly looks to be on the verge of breaking out, but he still hasn't quite proven himself as a top guy yet. So if you look at only what he's proven, you might call him a #2 guy.
Gardiner also has some potential, and isn't really a stud offensively or defensively (hurr durr -15). Looks like a decent #3-4 guy.
Zaitsev is an unproven guy. I mean, at one point Emelin was the best defenseman not in the NHL, and he's basically turned into a #6 guy.
As for everyone else? If you're not a Leafs fan, I doubt anyone could even name anyone else on your back-end. And really, unless if you're actually a die-hard Leafs fan, even most of them would have trouble naming anyone else on your blueline.
So by that. you've got maybe a #2, a #4, and a bunch of #6 guys. If you look at it that way, then yeah, your D could be classified as putrid.
However, if you think Rielly is a #1, Gardiner is a #3, Zaitsev is a #4, and the rest of the depth can be good #5-6 guys, then you're basically only missing a #2 guy overall, which is really not that bad. That's basically the shape the Habs are in right now (a #1, some #3/4, and some #5/6).
leafman101
Well-known member
Even if you are pessimistic on the Leafs D, there are teams out there with much worse. I mean New Jersey's best, most proven defenseman is Andy Greene. Edmonton's is Sekera. Now that is putrid.
The Leafs D is nowhere near putrid if they have two legitimate top 4 d, one of whom is a legit top pairing guy, and a bunch of depth.
The Leafs D is nowhere near putrid if they have two legitimate top 4 d, one of whom is a legit top pairing guy, and a bunch of depth.
leafman101
Well-known member
Reilly-Zaitsev
Gadriner-Carrick
Hunwick-Marnincin
New Jersey
Greene-Quincy
Severson-Merril
Moore-Lovejoy
Buffalo
Ristolainen-Bogosian
Kulikov-Franson
Georges-McCabe
Boston
Chara-McQuaid
Krug-Miller
Liles-Miller
Philly
McDonald-Steit
Gostisberge-Gudas
Provorov-Del Zotto
Montreal
Markov-Weber
Emelin-Petry
Beaulieu-Pateryn
Vancouver
Edler-Tanev
Sbisa-Gudbransson
Hutton-Biega
Edmonton
Sekera-Larson
Klefbloom-Fayne
Nurse-Ferrence
Arizona
OEL-Stone
Goligoski-Michalek
Murphy-Schenn
Lost of teams with equivalent or worse defenses. And some like New Jersey, Vancouver and Edmonton are just really, really bad. Below average, sure maybe. Putrid, not even close.
Gadriner-Carrick
Hunwick-Marnincin
New Jersey
Greene-Quincy
Severson-Merril
Moore-Lovejoy
Buffalo
Ristolainen-Bogosian
Kulikov-Franson
Georges-McCabe
Boston
Chara-McQuaid
Krug-Miller
Liles-Miller
Philly
McDonald-Steit
Gostisberge-Gudas
Provorov-Del Zotto
Montreal
Markov-Weber
Emelin-Petry
Beaulieu-Pateryn
Vancouver
Edler-Tanev
Sbisa-Gudbransson
Hutton-Biega
Edmonton
Sekera-Larson
Klefbloom-Fayne
Nurse-Ferrence
Arizona
OEL-Stone
Goligoski-Michalek
Murphy-Schenn
Lost of teams with equivalent or worse defenses. And some like New Jersey, Vancouver and Edmonton are just really, really bad. Below average, sure maybe. Putrid, not even close.
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