Laval Rocket Thread

[GGpX]

Two things can be true simultaneously, but probably more organically than coaching because Mailloux wasn't a bum last year.

If it was coaching, why is Riley Kidney still bad & Sean Farrell's significantly regressed?

What's actually making this team a lot better, which has nothing to do with coaching, is significant improvements in net.

They got rid of an ECHLer & got Connor Hughes, who is statistically the best goalie in the AHL right now. Last year, they fed Dobes to the wolves early in the second and he was putrid. Dobes improved the second they got a veteran goalie last year who could actually play.

 

[Stinky]

I’ve cancelled my TSN subscription online and have bought a subscription in order to watch the AHL because I want to watch a team win. Really really stoked on the rocket this year.

 

[Habsy]

If it was coaching, why is Riley Kidney still bad & Sean Farrell's significantly regressed?

This is a fallacy as not all students are the same.

 

[Habsy]

What's actually making this team a lot better, which has nothing to do with coaching, is significant improvements in net.

Improvement in net has nothing to do with coaching? Are you being serious right now?

 

[GGpX]

Improvement in net has nothing to do with coaching? Are you being serious right now?

Correct. Unless you think Pascal Vincent has the magic sauce for goalies like Ken Hitchcock used to have, but if that was the case, he'd be an NHL coach.

Also, Laval's had the same goaltending coach since their creation. You know, the guy who actually works with the goalies?

 

[GGpX]

Also, answer honestly, if you can: Is it a coincidence that Dobes immediately got better last year once they got a veteran goaltender or should Houle be credited for that? Just curious, because you want to tell me the head coach has direct correlation with goaltender performance.

Do you also think it's a coincidence that the team is winning more because they replaced an unplayable .880 save % goalie, forcing Dobes to play way too much, and added a .930 save % goalie to their lineup? And if it's not a coincidence, how exactly is that because they got rid of Houle and replaced him with Vincent?

 

[GrandWazoo]

Improvement in net has nothing to do with coaching? Are you being serious right now?

In this case it’s not even debatable. They started last year with Dobes, fresh out of college, and Mann. Dobes took until December to find his bearings and Mann was so bad that they had to sign another goalie and he never played in the AHL ever again after that.

Goaltending was much better in the second half.

 

[Habsy]

Correct. Unless you think Pascal Vincent has the magic sauce for goalies like Ken Hitchcock used to have, but if that was the case, he'd be an NHL coach.

Also, Laval's had the same goaltending coach since their creation. You know, the guy who actually works with the goalies?

Except you're really making a lot of assumptions here. Vincent is in charge of all the coaches as well as players and to simply attribute the change to a single acquisition, while part of it, is wrong.

You compartmentalize a staff that is not compartmentalized. We will agree to disagree here but in my opinion your analysis is obtuse.

 

[Habsy]

In this case it’s not even debatable. They started last year with Dobes, fresh out of college, and Mann. Dobes took until December to find his bearings and Mann was so bad that they had to sign another goalie and he never played in the AHL ever again after that.

Goaltending was much better in the second half.

Except it is debatable

 

[Habsy]

You're both contributing much to the player and little to the coaching which is what fans tend to do. You're seriously purporting that the improvement is due to a veteran backup goalie who is Mr. Miyagi incarnate and LM who woke up as the Dali Lama. Think about that for a second.

 

[Habsy]

So does anyone here disagree that the big club would be better in the standings with a seasoned coach over MSL?

 

[GrandWazoo]

You're both contributing much to the player and little to the coaching which is what fans tend to do. You're seriously proporting that the improvement is due to a veteran backup goalie who is Mr. Miyagi incarnate and LM who woke up as the Dali Lama. Think about that for a second.

1) I have no problem saying that Vincent is a better coach than Houle. Better track record, more experience. No issue with this.
2) Goaltending improvements is 95% roster based. Goaltending actually got better in the second half last year, under the same coach, when they acquired a veteran goalie. Dobes was great in the second half last year as well.
3) Let's not ignore that Barre-Boulet is a better AHL player than anything the Rockets had last year.

 

[Habsy]

1) I have no problem saying that Vincent is a better coach than Houle. Better track record, more experience. No issue with this.

Good because he is. I'm not saying he's Scotty Bowman but he's a big upgrade over Houle.

2) Goaltending improvements is 95% roster based. Goaltending actually got better in the second half last year, under the same coach, when they acquired a veteran goalie. Dobes was great in the second half last year as well.

So at what point do you factor in that the team playing in front of the goalie, reducing high danger chances (which they did) and playing better all around structures contributed to the better goaltending numbers? Or are you assuming Hughes is Dominic Hasek?

3) Let's not ignore that Barre-Boulet is a better AHL player than anything the Rockets had last year.

The team is better in front of the goalies, this I know but that team is coached better.


It is the penchant of fans to attribute more to a single player than the team and coaching. It has always been this way but it is incorrect unless that player is seriously elite like McDavid or Price. The coaching in Laval is much much better which is the primary reason the team is much much better. I'm expecting the same to happen with the Habs once the Marty experiment comes to an end, providing they pick a good coach. I'd wager Vincent would do better with the Habs roster than Marty is, goaltending for example would miraculously improve with a proper defensive structure.

You guys can believe as you will however it is most certainly debatable.

 

[GGpX]

Except you're really making a lot of assumptions here. Vincent is in charge of all the coaches as well as players and to simply attribute the change to a single acquisition, while part of it, is wrong.

Do you not understand the level of irony in this statement?

I haven't gone into much detail about why Laval's better beyond improvement in goaltending, but I think it's the main factor.

You've gone into detail why you think Laval is better, but you think it's replacing Houle by Pascal.

To simply attribute the change to a single acquisition, while part of it, is wrong.

Your words.

You compartmentalize a staff that is not compartmentalized. We will agree to disagree here but in my opinion your analysis is obtuse.

You call my analysis obtuse, yet refuse to answer my questions. Is it because you are unable to, or simply don't like the answers to them?

 

[GrandWazoo]

Good because he is. I'm not saying he's Scotty Bowman but he's a big upgrade over Houle.

So at what point do you factor in that the team playing in front of the goalie, reducing high danger chances (which they did) and playing better all around structures contributed to the better goaltending numbers? Or are you assuming Hughes is Dominic Hasek?

The team is better in front of the goalies, this I know but that team is coached better.


It is the penchant of fans to attribute more to a single player than the team and coaching. It has always been this way but it is incorrect unless that player is seriously elite like McDavid or Price. The coaching in Laval is much much better which is the primary reason the team is much much better. I'm expecting the same to happen with the Habs once the Marty experiment comes to an end, providing they pick a good coach. I'd wager Vincent would do better with the Habs roster than Marty is, goaltending for example would miraculously improve with a proper defensive structure.

You guys can believe as you will however it is most certainly debatable.

Dobes is as good this season as he was in the second half last season, if anything he might have been better in the second half last season. Certainly Vincent had nothing to do with his improvements last year. As for Hughes, he's brand new here, had great stats in Switzerland as well. Given that he wasn't there last year, it's impossible to compare him with Vincent vs Houle.

Better defensive structure most definitely helps goaltending.

Quality of players, and coaching, matters. I'm not evaluating either in a vacuum.

 

[GGpX]

You're both contributing much to the player and little to the coaching which is what fans tend to do. You're seriously purporting that the improvement is due to a veteran backup goalie who is Mr. Miyagi incarnate and LM who woke up as the Dali Lama. Think about that for a second.

Don't jump to conclusions or anything.

Nobody's calling the second goalie Mr. Miyagi or claiming Mailloux woke up as the Dali Lama. Think about the stretch needed to reach that conclusion because others don't agree with you.

Point is: Mailloux was good last year. Not only was he good, he had the best statistical season of any rookie defenseman in the AHL last year. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

Point is: At the time they signed Kasimir Kaskisuo to replace Strauss Mann, Dobes's save % was below .900. By the end of the year, it increased to .906. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

Another question: If Vincent is responsible for the goaltending improvement, should Houle be credited with the goaltending improvement last year when they signed Kaskisuo?

Mailloux wasn't shit last year with Houde and Dobes was shit until he had a real back-up. Is their progression because they've gotten organically better as you would expect young players to, or are they better because the coaching's better? Again, two things can be true at the same time.

However, I don't believe in your thesis that Vincent has the same guys as Houde and the results are completely different. He has most the same prospects + Tuch, Engstrom & Beck, who are all a year older and should be, by default, better. He has better goaltending, which on every single level of hockey, is the most direct correlation between wins and losses. Can a defensive structure improve goaltending? Sure, but you know what improves goaltending much more than structure? Actual goaltenders who can stop the puck.

Here's my pushback for Vincent: Like with most coaches, there's a limit to what they can realistically do. Riley Kidney still sucks, Sean Farrell & Jacob Perrault decided to tank their own careers, William Trudeau's stagnated. If you're going to attribute credit to a coach for some players improving, why is it also not possible to give blame for players have regressed?

 

[Habsy]

Don't jump to conclusions or anything.

Nobody's calling the second goalie Mr. Miyagi or claiming Mailloux woke up as the Dali Lama. Think about the stretch needed to reach that conclusion because others don't agree with you.

It's called sarcasm

Point is: Mailloux was good last year. Not only was he good, he had the best statistical season of any rookie defenseman in the AHL last year. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

Yes he was, he's better this year.

Point is: At the time they signed Kasimir Kaskisuo to replace Strauss Mann, Dobes's save % was below .900. By the end of the year, it increased to .906. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

Already have

Another question: If Vincent is responsible for the goaltending improvement, should Houle be credited with the goaltending improvement last year when they signed Kaskisuo?

Vincent is partly responsible for the goaltending improvement through his team D improvement upfront and the lowering of high scoring chances. Look it up.

Mailloux wasn't shit last year with Houde and Dobes was shit until he had a real back-up. Is their progression because they've gotten organically better as you would expect young players to, or are they better because the coaching's better? Again, two things can be true at the same time.

The backup isn't the only reason Dobes got better, he played less and learned more.

However, I don't believe in your thesis that Vincent has the same guys as Houde and the results are completely different. He has most the same prospects + Tuch, Engstrom & Beck, who are all a year older and should be, by default, better. He has better goaltending, which on every single level of hockey, is the most direct correlation between wins and losses. Can a defensive structure improve goaltending? Sure, but you know what improves goaltending much more than structure? Actual goaltenders who can stop the puck.

Just stop now with this. Confidence is the number one thing in goaltending. Playing the angles, challenging the shooter out and not deep in the crease etc. This comes from coaching. This comes from confidence in your team in front of you and yes this comes from the goalie himself.

As GW put it, nothing occurs in a vacuum. I will give the pupil full marks for improvement but you tend to think this has nothing to do with the teacher. That's thinking in a vacuum.

Here's my pushback for Vincent: Like with most coaches, there's a limit to what they can realistically do. Riley Kidney still sucks, Sean Farrell & Jacob Perrault decided to tank their own careers, William Trudeau's stagnated. If you're going to attribute credit to a coach for some players improving, why is it also not possible to give blame for players have regressed?

There are 30 kids in a classroom. The teacher teaches them all. Do 30 kids get A's?

I give credit to the student for sure but also the teacher. You are not.

 

[Habsy]

The point is this, Vincent is a better coach than Houle, I think most would agree to that, and the team improved greatly. To think there's no correlation there is silly. Just plain silly.

 

[Habsy]

Dobes is as good this season as he was in the second half last season, if anything he might have been better in the second half last season. Certainly Vincent had nothing to do with his improvements last year. As for Hughes, he's brand new here, had great stats in Switzerland as well. Given that he wasn't there last year, it's impossible to compare him with Vincent vs Houle.

Less playing time allowed corrections to Dobes' positioning last year. He's even better this year with a direct correlation to reduced HDSC. That is on coaching.

Better defensive structure most definitely helps goaltending.

Amen

Quality of players, and coaching, matters. I'm not evaluating either in a vacuum.

You simply can't. Some kids get it, some don't. That's a fact of life. Some teachers are better than others, Marty has a great hockey mind, that doesn't mean he can teach it to others though.

 

[wiseguy1]

It's really a combination of things. Somehow Vincent took three reject Dmen in Hayes, Wotherspoon and Jacobs and integrated them into a D that is suprisingly efficient. Goaltending is definitely a key, Rocket are routinely outshot and somehow they manage to eke out wins. This will definitely even out as the season progresses.