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Leaf Rumours

hmm.. so hodgson = stajan and kadri = hodgson and kadri = stajan and kadri = hall and hall = lecavalier

i guess it all comes down to stajan = hall = lecavalier = jesus christ
 
Preston_Mizzi said:
hmm.. so hodgson = stajan and kadri = hodgson and kadri = stajan and kadri = hall and hall = lecavalier

i guess it all comes down to stajan = hall = lecavalier = jesus christ
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we'll see how Kadri finishes up this year, but he was ahead of the kinds of paces the likes of Hodgson and Stajan put up in their draft year, and after a slow start this year, he's really piled on and looks like a good bet to finish at a better pace than either of them did in their post-draft years as well.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
Cody Hodgson is the most overrated junior prospect relative to ability in twenty years.
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And that's essentially my point.

Have I ever said Hodgson is a bad prospect? No. Have I ever said he's a bust? No. He's a pretty good prospect that has very good hockey sense, and NHL shot and NHL hands at a young age. I think he has very good chance of becoming a solid 2nd line forward in the league, with some potential of becoming a 1st line player.

But the way he's been overrated - not just by Canucks fans, but also by guys like Pierre McGuire because of his successful WJHC tourneys, oh my god you'd think he's the second comings of Lecavalier or Steven Stamkos just by reading his raves.

It doesn't mean I want no part of Hodgson. But it all depends on what the Canucks want in return, and judging from the way he's been overrated there's no way they'll settle for a fair return. The fact there's a Kaberle for Hodgson (1 for 1) rumor tells you how overrated he is. On top of that, throw in his back injury, which is pretty much the last area you want a young player to be injured ... this is not a situation you want to get involved in as far as trade's concerned.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
Cody Hodgson is the most overrated junior prospect relative to ability in twenty years.
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nah.

pick any of the staals after eric and you have players who, as prospects, were more overrated than cody hodgson.

despite being the 'most overrated junior prospect in 20 years' hodgson has produced at an elite level throughout his ohl career (relative to age) and his stature as a top junior level player has been solidified by his performance at the world juniors.

he obviously has some holes in his game. he isn't going to be the top five talent in the nhl that he was in the ohl (and wtih his back injury might never make it to the nhl).

he is a very comparable prospect to kadri. very, very comparable. they have nearly identical offensive upsides (although they are very different types of players). as mentioned their junior production has been identical.

canucks fans have perhaps been guilty of overrating him. everybody else, though? not really. there's a reason why he was picked 10th instead of 1st. he isn't a budding superstar, but still, he's a very good prospect with first line potential.
 
msun30 said:
nah.

pick any of the staals after eric and you have players who, as prospects, were more overrated than cody hodgson.

despite being the 'most overrated junior prospect in 20 years' hodgson has produced at an elite level throughout his ohl career (relative to age) and his stature as a top junior level player has been solidified by his performance at the world juniors.

he obviously has some holes in his game. he isn't going to be the top five talent in the nhl that he was in the ohl (and wtih his back injury might never make it to the nhl).

he is a very comparable prospect to kadri. very, very comparable. they have nearly identical offensive upsides (although they are very different types of players). as mentioned their junior production has been identical.

canucks fans have perhaps been guilty of overrating him. everybody else, though? not really. there's a reason why he was picked 10th instead of 1st. he isn't a budding superstar, but still, he's a very good prospect with first line potential.
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First, about the Staals. No one has hyped Jared Staal since his OHL draft year, much less his NHL draft year. Marc Staal is a twenty-two year-old who's the number one defenseman on his NHL team. Say what you want, kind of tough to be overrated when that's the case. Jordan Staal is a twenty-one year-old playing in his fourth NHL season, and he was a key part of a Stanley Cup run. Also, kind of hard to be overrated.

Second, you have to distinguish between offensive output and offensive upside. Offensive upside implies that a player has a skillset should lead to big offensive numbers as a pro. With his skating, I simply don't think someone can safely project Hodgson as a first liner. He's got the shot and the hockey sense to be an offensive contributor but I'm not sure those two attributes overcome his skating deficiency.
 
you have to stop throwing out comparison involving players you who really never had a good chance to see play.

linden was a 70-80 point forward before keenan cut his balls off and injuries slowed him down. he was also 6'4 or 6'5, over 220 and physical in the corners and in front of the net... if hodgson were built like linden and played a similar game he would be a surefire ppg nhl'er with his hands and vision.

really, that's his big problem -- he is on the small side and lacks foot speed.

and i'm not 'rationalizing' for him at all. i'm pointing out the fact that he has produced in the ohl at an elite level, both at a top notch level for a 17/18 year old and then at an elite level for an 18/19 year old. his production from last season mirrored the production we have seen from a host of prospects, none of whom are considered to be particularly overrated.

that isn't rationalizing, that's dealing in facts.
 
IrishWolfman said:
First, about the Staals. No one has hyped Jared Staal since his OHL draft year, much less his NHL draft year. Marc Staal is a twenty-two year-old who's the number one defenseman on his NHL team. Say what you want, kind of tough to be overrated when that's the case. Jordan Staal is a twenty-one year-old playing in his fourth NHL season, and he was a key part of a Stanley Cup run. Also, kind of hard to be overrated.
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it isn't hard for these players to be overrated.

i'm not going to bother with jared, because at this point it looks like an nhl career is a long shot (but at one point scouts labeled him the best out of the four -- so as a prospect, yeah he was pretty damn overrated, at least early in teh game).

the fact that you are saying marc staal isn't overrated because he is the top defenseman on his team is, in essence, demonstrative of him being overrated. a big part of new york's problem is that marc staal is the top defenseman on the rangers. he looks like a solid defensive defenseman with a bit of offensive upside. not unlike schenn, who i think gets somewhat overrated (although schenn seems to have a better panic threshold with the puck and is a little bit more patient with it than staal). staal projects as a 2nd pair defender, and yet before this season some were calling for him to be #7 on team canada (fortunately nobody with any say over personnel decisions).

as for jordan staal -- yeah, it's pretty easy to get overrated in his situation. first, everybody seems to be under the impression that he's buried on pittsburgh's 3rd line and doesn't get ample opportunity to produce -- not true, he gets about as much ice time as kessel (granted, less on the pp). yet despite that has seen little to no tangible increase in his production since his rookie season. his upside is much more limited than people seem to think.

more importantly, we're talking about overrated prospects in particular... and no prospect in recent memory has been more overrated than jordan staal. the sheer fact that he was selected second overall in that ridiculously deep and top heavy 06 draft speaks volumes about his overratedness.

he was picked immediately before toews, backstrom and kessel.... and is the least talented of that bunch by a longshot.

Second, you have to distinguish between offensive output and offensive upside. Offensive upside implies that a player has a skillset should lead to big offensive numbers as a pro. With his skating, I simply don't think someone can safely project Hodgson as a first liner. He's got the shot and the hockey sense to be an offensive contributor but I'm not sure those two attributes overcome his skating deficiency.
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see, i agree with the latter point -- and i have made that clear. still, (once again) he was a 10th overall pick instead of a top five pick for that reason. i have never called him a surefire bet to be an 80 point scorer in the nhl. i have only said he has the potential to do that because a couple of his intangibles (mainly related to hockey sense) are at an elite level.
 
msun30 said:
and i'm not 'rationalizing' for him at all. i'm pointing out the fact that he has produced in the ohl at an elite level, both at a top notch level for a 17/18 year old and then at an elite level for an 18/19 year old. his production from last season mirrored the production we have seen from a host of prospects, none of whom are considered to be particularly overrated.

that isn't rationalizing, that's dealing in facts.
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Dozens of players produce at elite levels all over the CHL every year. Hell, Brandon Kozun outperformed Cody Hodgson last year. You can't judge a player on production. First, you can't compare players absent of context. Hodgson played on a Brampton team that included Evgeny Grachev and Matt Duchene whom he saw powerplay time with.
Evaluating a prospect's potential means assessing how their particular skillset will work at the pro level. That Hodgson's a smart hockey player is good, that he's a slow one is bad. That he's small (5'11" is small when playing against the Prongers, Webers and Phaneufs of the league) and slow is unquestionably going to limit his ability to be effective, particularly as a centre.
 
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msun30 said:
it isn't hard for these players to be overrated.

i'm not going to bother with jared, because at this point it looks like an nhl career is a long shot (but at one point scouts labeled him the best out of the four -- so as a prospect, yeah he was pretty damn overrated, at least early in teh game).

the fact that you are saying marc staal isn't overrated because he is the top defenseman on his team is, in essence, demonstrative of him being overrated. a big part of new york's problem is that marc staal is the top defenseman on the rangers. he looks like a solid defensive defenseman with a bit of offensive upside. not unlike schenn, who i think gets somewhat overrated (although schenn seems to have a better panic threshold with the puck and is a little bit more patient with it than staal). staal projects as a 2nd pair defender, and yet before this season some were calling for him to be #7 on team canada (fortunately nobody with any say over personnel decisions).

as for jordan staal -- yeah, it's pretty easy to get overrated in his situation. first, everybody seems to be under the impression that he's buried on pittsburgh's 3rd line and doesn't get ample opportunity to produce -- not true, he gets about as much ice time as kessel (granted, less on the pp). yet despite that has seen little to no tangible increase in his production since his rookie season. his upside is much more limited than people seem to think.

more importantly, we're talking about overrated prospects in particular... and no prospect in recent memory has been more overrated than jordan staal. the sheer fact that he was selected second overall in that ridiculously deep and top heavy 06 draft speaks volumes about his overratedness.

he was picked immediately before toews, backstrom and kessel.... and is the least talented of that bunch by a longshot.



see, i agree with the latter point -- and i have made that clear. still, (once again) he was a 10th overall pick instead of a top five pick for that reason. i have never called him a surefire bet to be an 80 point scorer in the nhl. i have only said he has the potential to do that because a couple of his intangibles (mainly related to hockey sense) are at an elite level.
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What you're looking at here is a quality of minutes argument against a quantity of minutes argument. That he doesn't get powerplay time is a factor because he's missing out on a key opportunity produce since powerplay time is primarily offensive TOI. Playing on the Penalty Kill regularly also helps keep his offensive numbers down while keeping his TOI up. Since Penalty Killing afford far less opportunity for scoring chances than does the powerplay, his chances to increase his offensive totals go down. Being buried on Pittsburgh's third line doesn't matter for ice time, it matters for linemates. Pittsburgh can barely afford wingers for Crosby or Malkin, when Staal is playing with Matt Cooke and Tyler Kennedy, let's not pretend he's playing with comparable linemates to Backstrom or Toews.
Now, this is not to say that Jordan Staal, if he suddenly got more powerplay time and better linemates would turn into Backstrom or Toews. I don't think he would. I do think we'd see a 30 goal, 40 assist centre instead of a 20 goal, 30 assist centre. I have no question at all of that.
 
Since when is good hockey IQ bad?

It guarantees that at worst he'll be a serviceable NHL player. Throw in his skill level and vision, no reason he shouldn't have a good NHL career.

"Bad skaters" in junior become good NHL players all the time.
 
leafman101 said:
Since when is good hockey IQ bad?

It guarantees that at worst he'll be a serviceable NHL player. Throw in his skill level and vision, no reason he shouldn't have a good NHL career.

"Bad skaters" in junior become good NHL players all the time.
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"Bad skaters" in junior also end up playing in Europe or bouncing around the AHL all the time. For every Luc Robitaille, there's a John Tripp. It's not an irrelevant criticism.
 
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