Leaf Rumours

[mbow30]

:cryin: we dont need 2nd liners :cryin:

with poni and stemp all but finished as maple leafs this team needs a couple of wingers for the 2nd and/or 3rd lines. they also need size and physicality up front.

there is more to building a team than just first liners, second liners and the like. there are a lot of elements that go into it.

what this team doesn't need, however, is a small second line centre. because they already have bozak with kadri waiting in the wings.

 

[Montana]

:cryin: we dont need 2nd liners :cryin:

Backes is precisely the type of player this team needs. And if he's still in any way shape or form available.......Burke will acquire him.

 

[PlayerToBeNamedLater]

really? weiss is just a 2nd liner that has improved steadily has last two seasons due to being healthier than earlier in his career, but horton is a first liner? i don't know about you, but there's only room for 1 hog on this team.. we already have kessel, i don't want to deal with horton, who really isn't good enough to hog at all... oh, and horton would cost much more than weiss, even with their similar upsides.

whatever, thank goodness we have burkie as gm instead of our fans, hhahahahahaha

18 yrs old:
Horton: 55 gms, 14 gls, 22 pts (82 gms, 21 gls, 33 pts)
Weiss: 7 gms, 1 gl, 2 pts (82 gms, 12 gls, 23 pts)

19 yrs old:
Horton: N/A
Weiss: 77 gms, 6 gls, 21 pts (82 gms, 6 gls, 22 pts)

20 yrs old:
Horton: 71 gms, 28 gls, 47 pts (82 gms, 32 gls, 54 pts)
Weiss: 50 gms, 12 gls, 29 pts (82 gms, 20 gls, 48 pts)

21 yrs old:
Horton: 82 gms, 31 gls, 62 pts (82 gms, 31 gls, 62 pts)
Weiss: N/A

22 yrs old:
Horton: 82 gms, 27 gls, 62 pts (82 gms, 27 gls, 62 pts)
Weiss: 41 gms, 9 gls, 21 pts (82 gms, 18 gls, 42 pts)

23 yrs old:
Horton: 67 gms, 22 gls, 45 pts (82 gms, 27 gls, 55 pts)
Weiss: 74 gms, 20 gls, 48 pts (82 gms, 22 gls, 53 pts)

24 yrs old:
Horton: 51 gms, 17 gls, 46 pts (82 gms, 27 gls, 74 pts)
Weiss: 74 gms, 13 gls, 42 pts (82 gms, 14 gls, 47 pts)




Horton was better at similar ages as Weiss. And you have to remember, powerforwards typically take longer to develop as well. At 24/25, Horton's just coming into his prime as a powerforward.

 

[Preston_Mizzi]

he doesn't have higher upside than a player who, physically, is basically a carbon copy, who is producing at a similar rate and who is 3 years younger.

he has no tangible advantage over bozak in terms of speed, skill or strength. in fact, he's smaller than bozak. they're both smallish, skill centres who are very smart, very quick and responsible defensively.

except bozak is showing more at a younger age and with less experience than we saw from weiss.

as for nagging injuries and breaking out -- in his mid 20s he has gone from a 40-50 point guy to a 60-65 point guy. i think that has more to do with age and maturation than staying healthy.

he has also plateaued from last season. the guy's got talent but he isn't a burgeoning first liner. he's a second line centre, and won't be more than that.

if bozak ever gets where weiss is right now, i will be elated. with that said, i would trade bozak for weiss in a second.

teams fail because they rely so heavily on their young "talent" and refuse to acquire proven players. then theyre all up in arms when the young guys dont pan out. i think the bust rate for young players will shock you guys a lot.

but part of me thinks you guys would have a different point of view if weiss was a leaf.

 

[mbow30]

yep, a big part of florida's problem has been relying on weiss as a first line centre when really he's just a second line talent. they should have been looking for an upgrade up the middle for the past several years but haven't.

it looks like sexton has made this realization, though.

again, i'm not predicting great things from bozak. i am, after all, comparing him to stephen weiss.

 

[BG]

I'd say Weiss would be an upgrade over Grabs, and comes at a very reasonable $3.1/season cap hit - signed until 2013.

A Weiss/Bozak combo would be an upgrade down the middle given that none of Sedin/Crosby/Thornton/Backstrom/Malkin/Kopitar/Getzlaf are likely to be traded anytime soon.

 

[Preston_Mizzi]

I'd say Weiss would be an upgrade over Grabs, and comes at a very reasonable $3.1/season cap hit - signed until 2013.

A Weiss/Bozak combo would be an upgrade down the middle given that none of Sedin/Crosby/Thornton/Backstrom/Malkin/Kopitar/Getzlaf are likely to be traded anytime soon.

pretty much.. and just blindly praying that kadri or bozak pans out without a backup plan is plain stupid. and no, i do not want grabovski as this teams 2nd line center long-term.

 

[mbow30]

I'd say Weiss would be an upgrade over Grabs, and comes at a very reasonable $3.1/season cap hit - signed until 2013.

A Weiss/Bozak combo would be an upgrade down the middle given that none of Sedin/Crosby/Thornton/Backstrom/Malkin/Kopitar/Getzlaf are likely to be traded anytime soon.

ugh.

nobody has said that weiss = grabovski.

but of course... kadri's upside >> weiss's upside.

you simply have to keep open the opportunity for kadri to take one of those spots. it makes absolutely no sense to lock down a spot on the first two lines with a guy like weiss. if you can get a high impact player then you do it. but settling on a second line talent would be pretty stupid.

to compete with those centres you listed above they need kadri to be quite a bit better than a 60 point centre. clogging up the middle with those talents would be an epic mistake. it would be a continuation of the kind of thinking that has made the leafs such a lousy team over the past several seasons.

see if kadri can be that ppg guy. if he can't find somebody who can.

but don't pursue players like weiss whose upside is very clearly limited.

 

[Montana]

I'd say Weiss would be an upgrade over Grabs, and comes at a very reasonable $3.1/season cap hit - signed until 2013.

A Weiss/Bozak combo would be an upgrade down the middle given that none of Sedin/Crosby/Thornton/Backstrom/Malkin/Kopitar/Getzlaf are likely to be traded anytime soon.

Thorton is a free agent after next year.

 

[Leafin']

Alright, enough felating the not so good Stephen Weiss. Damn is he your brother?

We dont need that kind of player on this team, what we need upfront is some truculence. A couple players who can get infront of the net and mix it up. The improvement of going from Stajan to Weiss would be minimal, and thus there would be no point.

Unless Weiss is getting traded here for Jeff Finger, we really have no need for him and his salary.

 

[BG]

yep, a big part of florida's problem has been relying on weiss as a first line centre when really he's just a second line talent. they should have been looking for an upgrade up the middle for the past several years but haven't.

it looks like sexton has made this realization, though.

again, i'm not predicting great things from bozak. i am, after all, comparing him to stephen weiss.

Weiss has only been Florida's "first line centre" since they traded away Jokinen.

Make no bones - the Panthers have been a massive clusterfook for the better part of their existence. That they lost Luongo/Jokinen/Bouwmeester for essentially nothing has seriously set them back.

 

[leafman101]

Part of rebuilding is letting the young guys play.

Barring the ability to pick up a legit #1 center, there is no reason not to go with Bozak-Kadri-Hanson. Bozak is already developing some chemistry with Kessel, and Kadri absolutely has to play anyway.

Why take away their ice time for a marginal upgrade?

If you are going to play guys for their potential, may as well go with the young guys.

 

[mbow30]

pretty much.. and just blindly praying that kadri or bozak pans out without a backup plan is plain stupid. and no, i do not want grabovski as this teams 2nd line center long-term.

you don't pre-empt these things.

if they don't pan out (frankly, bozak already has) then you worry about finding the right parts. you don't settle on second rate players just in case your potential first-rate players don't pan out. you hope that things work out. if they don't then you worry about building a contingency.

of course, that argument changes if a guy like lecavalier, or thornton (or whomever) comes available. but stephen weiss is an inadequate contingency. at best you're still not good enough up the middle to contend. at worst you're either not giving adequate ice time to your top youngster, or stuck with a bloated contract on the third ilne.

 

[Preston_Mizzi]

ugh.

nobody has said that weiss = grabovski.

but of course... kadri's upside >> weiss's upside.

you simply have to keep open the opportunity for kadri to take one of those spots. it makes absolutely no sense to lock down a spot on the first two lines with a guy like weiss. if you can get a high impact player then you do it. but settling on a second line talent would be pretty stupid.

to compete with those centres you listed above they need kadri to be quite a bit better than a 60 point centre. clogging up the middle with those talents would be an epic mistake. it would be a continuation of the kind of thinking that has made the leafs such a lousy team over the past several seasons.

see if kadri can be that ppg guy. if he can't find somebody who can.

but don't pursue players like weiss whose upside is very clearly limited.

no ones locking down anything.. if kadri and bozak are better than weiss then weiss will be our third line center... do you really think kadri, bozak, and hanson are locks down the middle? this is exactly why i wanted to keep stajan.. you can't build a team just hoping players develop.

 

[Montana]

Alright, enough felating the not so good Stephen Weiss. Damn is he your brother?

Preston Mizzi and Stephen Weiss played together on the Plymouth Whalers, maybe that's where the love affair with Weiss began?

 

[mbow30]

Weiss has only been Florida's "first line centre" since they traded away Jokinen.

Make no bones - the Panthers have been a massive clusterfook for the better part of their existence. That they lost Luongo/Jokinen/Bouwmeester for essentially nothing has seriously set them back.

that's almost 2 full seasons.

and all he's been is a 60-65 point guy.

it's not like he wasn't getting ice time/opportunity before. in both 06-07 and 07-08 he got over 17 minutes per game and over 2 minutes of pp time per.

in 05-06 he played 15 and change, but have nearly 4 minutes per game on the pp.

this guy has had plenty of opportunity to produce.

 

[mbow30]

no ones locking down anything.. if kadri and bozak are better than weiss then weiss will be our third line center... do you really think kadri, bozak, and hanson are locks down the middle? this is exactly why i wanted to keep stajan.. you can't build a team just hoping players develop.

you rebuild by giving your young players opportunities to play. if they don't pan out then you shift gears once that becomes apparent (like the panthers are now doing).

you don't rebuild by paying a player $3mn to centre your third line while offering the organization nothing it is really shorting on.

besides, they have grabovski as a contingency up the middle in case kadri isn't ready next season.

 

[Preston_Mizzi]

you rebuild by giving your young players opportunities to play. if they don't pan out then you shift gears once that becomes apparent (like the panthers are now doing).

you don't rebuild by paying a player $3mn to centre your third line while offering the organization nothing it is really shorting on.

besides, they have grabovski as a contingency up the middle in case kadri isn't ready next season.

i guess you're more optimistic than me that all our prospects will be superstars. oh well.. we'll see.. it normally doesn't work that way but i hope youre right.

 

[mbow30]

nobody is saying that the leafs shouldn't be looking to upgrade the roster.

the problem is that with the cap you can only spend a finite amount of money. and in terms of assets to trade you only have a limited supply.

if you replace stephen weiss with vincent lecavalier it becomes a totally different argument. but the point is that stephen weiss just isn't good enough to justify the expense to acquire him, the amount of cap space you'd have to allot for him, and the opportunity he'd be taking away from tyler bozak or nazim kadri.

it isn't a matter of weiss not being a solid player -- he definitely is. but he isn't what this team needs. you don't add players just becuase. they have to fit based on your team's cap position, strengths and weaknesses and needs.

he doesn't address or fit well with any of those.

 

[mbow30]

i guess you're more optimistic than me that all our prospects will be superstars. oh well.. we'll see.. it normally doesn't work that way but i hope youre right.

quit the hyperbole. i said nothing about them being 'superstars.'

i just see bozak as a similar talent to weiss and kadri as having significantly higher upside.

if the team could acquire a legitimate star i would strongly support burke pushing hard to strike a deal. just like i've advocated pursuing lecavalier. just like i supported the kessel, giguere and phaneuf trades.

but one thing i will never support is paying in tradeable assets or cap dollars for second rate talent that doesn't address any of a team's needs. that is how teams continuously shoot themselves in the foot. that is how you end up with a team of stempniaks, blakes, grabovskis and hagmans or a team of giontas, kostitsyns and gomez's instead of a team of crosbys, malkins and staals, getzlafs perrys and selannes or datsyuks, zetterbergs and franzens.