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Leaf Rumours

JaysCyYoung said:
Ah, but we weren't discussing age at all, so it has no relevance to the discussion. You were discussing team impact. And the fact that a projected top three draft selection (at least before the year began -- Fowler might not even go top five at this point) wasn't able to have a greater impact on such an offensively potent team after rave reviews prior to this season could and should be discussed.
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Of course age is relevant.
 
leafman101 said:
Of course age is relevant.
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Not in this instance. If Fowler was as good as you claim him to be he would have no problem outperforming an older player who hasn't even experienced a sniff of being drafted. He was a major disappointment offensively in his first year in Windsor. That's pretty much the end of it.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
Not in this instance. If Fowler was as good as you claim him to be he would have no problem outperforming an older player who hasn't even experienced a sniff of being drafted. He was a major disappointment offensively in his first year in Windsor. That's pretty much the end of it.
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Don't be silly. We all know older players have a larger impact in the CHL level then their true talent level. I know you know that. Being 20 years old playing against 17-18 year olds is a huge advantage.
 
leafman101 said:
Ellis is one of the two most important parts of that teams offense.
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Ellis is one of several major components of that team's offence. How many assists with he have if Taylor Hall couldn't score from anywhere on the ice? How much offensive zone TOI would they have on the powerplay if Adam Henrique wasn't as effective in the face-off circle? How well would they be able to maintain possession if Nemisz and Kassian weren't as dominant along the low wall? There are a bunch of reasons for Windsor's success, Ellis is one of them.

But I want to see him defend Dustin Byfuglien if he ever makes the Nashville Predators.
 
leafman101 said:
Don't be silly. We all know older players have a larger impact in the CHL level then their true talent level. I know you know that.
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And again, that does not dismiss the fact that he was a disappointment in his first season. I'm not sure what you're not understanding about that. Hell, Calvin de Haan had a more impressive first season with Oshawa two years ago than Fowler did last year.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
And again, that does not dismiss the fact that he was a disappointment in his first season. I'm not sure what you're not understanding about that. Hell, Calvin de Haan had a more impressive first season with Oshawa two years ago than Fowler did last year.
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He was disappointing because he was expected to be amazing and dominant to compete with Hall for #1, and was just very very very good instead.
 
leafman101 said:
Gormley played higher level hockey.
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Relative to what? Is the Q better than the USHL? Yeah. Is it better than the NCAA? Probably not. Is it better than the Swedish, Canadian or Russian U-18 teams? No.

Saying it's "higher" is relative to the week of their schedule.
 
IrishWolfman said:
Relative to what? Is the Q better than the USHL? Yeah. Is it better than the NCAA? Probably not. Is it better than the Swedish, Canadian or Russian U-18 teams? No.

Saying it's "higher" is relative to the week of their schedule.
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Fowler would have been better served for success this year had he had played in the OHL last year, like Gormley in the Q. Thats all I'm getting at.
 
leafman101 said:
Fowler would have been better served for success this year had he had played in the OHL last year, like Gormley in the Q. Thats all I'm getting at.
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That's funny, you know why?

Because Cam Fowler played on the exact same team as Jeremy Morin. Morin stepped right into the O, same age as Fowler, same conference as Fowler even an identical situation to Fowler and put up 47 goals as an OHL rookie.

No one, and I mean no one really expected him to get near that in his first OHL season.

So, no, playing in the USNTDP last year did not negatively effect Fowler's chances for success.
 
IrishWolfman said:
That's funny, you know why?

Because Cam Fowler played on the exact same team as Jeremy Morin. Morin stepped right into the O, same age as Fowler, same conference as Fowler even an identical situation to Fowler and put up 47 goals as an OHL rookie.

No one, and I mean no one really expected him to get near that in his first OHL season.

So, no, playing in the USNTDP last year did not negatively effect Fowler's chances for success.
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Just because it didn't hurt one player, doesn't mean it didn't hurt the other.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
If there was one word to describe Fowler's play this season it would be this: underwhelming.
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No doubt. But even still he put up a ppg, was an OHL all star, won a WJ gold, a memorial cup, and was named to the memorial cup all star team.

The fact that this was underwhelming, speaks of what the guy is actually capable of. His season would have been very impressive for literally anyone else.
 
Yes it does speak to what he is capable of. But given his skillset he should be held to a higher standard than other players. That's the whole point. If Seguin or Hall had scored 80 points would people be talking about them in the same realm? No, because it would have been considered a disappointing season relative to expectations.
 
But Fowler still doesn't have anyone who did what he did.

Thats the difference.

He was still the best.

And add that this was disappointing because of his very high ceiling....that is why I veiw him (along with Connolly) a step above the rest.

I don't expect everyone to agree.
 
leafman101 said:
Just because it didn't hurt one player, doesn't mean it didn't hurt the other.
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Except your argument that is that it didn't hurt Fowler, as is evidenced in your discussion with Jays because you're saying he had a great season.

So, if, as you're contending with Jays, Fowler did have a great season and if, as I'm contending Gormley did as well, then age becomes relevant. The fact is that Fowler will have played three years of high level hockey, before being drafted and Gormley will have only played two.

So, in order to accurately compare Gormley and Fowler, one would have to compare Fowler this year against Gormley next year. Also, I don't give a damn about stats. I've watched Cam Fowler play, multiple times and I've watched Brandon Gormley play. Brandon Gormley is the better defenseman and I know that there are many pro scouts, also known as people whom NHL teams pay for their opinion, who agree with me.

Fowler is a very good skater. That is literally his only advantage, and against Gormley it's a very slight advantage. Gormley is a smarter hockey player, he's a more defensively sound hockey player, he's just as capable offensively and he's more physical. And given the fact that Fowler is a year ahead in the development curve, it's entirely possible that an 18 year-old Gormley will be more dominant offensively than an 18 year-old Fowler.

Fowler is an excellent one dimensional offensive defenseman. Brandon Gormley is an excellent offensive defenseman who doesn't give up anything in the defensive zone. That makes him a better prospect.
 
IrishWolfman said:
Except your argument that is that it didn't hurt Fowler, as is evidenced in your discussion with Jays because you're saying he had a great season.
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No. He did have a great season. But he has the talent and potential to be much better, and was expected to be. Which is a major plus.

IrishWolfman said:
So, if, as you're contending with Jays, Fowler did have a great season and if, as I'm contending Gormley did as well, then age becomes relevant. The fact is that Fowler will have played three years of high level hockey, before being drafted and Gormley will have only played two.

So, in order to accurately compare Gormley and Fowler, one would have to compare Fowler this year against Gormley next year. Also, I don't give a damn about stats. I've watched Cam Fowler play, multiple times and I've watched Brandon Gormley play. Brandon Gormley is the better defenseman and I know that there are many pro scouts, also known as people whom NHL teams pay for their opinion, who agree with me.

Fowler is a very good skater. That is literally his only advantage, and against Gormley it's a very slight advantage. Gormley is a smarter hockey player, he's a more defensively sound hockey player, he's just as capable offensively and he's more physical. And given the fact that Fowler is a year ahead in the development curve, it's entirely possible that an 18 year-old Gormley will be more dominant offensively than an 18 year-old Fowler.

Fowler is an excellent one dimensional offensive defenseman. Brandon Gormley is an excellent offensive defenseman who doesn't give up anything in the defensive zone. That makes him a better prospect.
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I'm really not worried about 18 year olds play in their own end. That is something that can be figured out. Not to say that being good in your own end at 17/18 is a bad thing, but its not a necessity in order to be good defensively down the road in the NHL. It just isn't.

As for the experience. I would argue that Fowler at 18 would have been better than Fowler at 18 with an extra year in the O at 16/17 as opposed to with the under 18 program, and because of that, really isn't that far ahead in the development curve.
 
leafman101 said:
No. He did have a great season. But he has the talent and potential to be much better, and was expected to be. Which is a major plus.



I'm really not worried about 18 year olds play in their own end. That is something that can be figured out. Not to say that being good in your own end at 17/18 is a bad thing, but its not a necessity in order to be good defensively down the road in the NHL. It just isn't.

As for the experience. I would argue that Fowler at 18 would have been better than Fowler at 18 with an extra year in the O at 16/17 as opposed to with the under 18 program, and because of that, really isn't that far ahead in the development curve.
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The difference between the U-18 team and the OHL is negligible and thus isn't all that relevant. Fowler has a full year on the development curve as an advantage on Gormley.

And I love how people say "defence can be learned". Do you have any idea how tough that is? Even the assertion itself, which implies that Fowler needs some serious defensive work (which he does) also concedes that Gormley is the more complete defenseman simply because he has much less to learn than Fowler does at the next level.
Why would you willingly take the bigger project when the upside is pretty well the same.
 
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