• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

Leaf Rumours

corksens said:
Well, by the sum of their parts.

Hamhuis
Ballard
Bieksa
Salo
Edler
Ehrhoff
O'Brien

vs.

Phaneuf
Kaberle
Komisarek
Beauchemin
Gunnarsson
Schenn
Lebda

The top-2 Leafs defensemen are better, but top to bottom, the Canucks D brings more to the table.
Click to expand...

It would require a hell of an argument to prove that Bieksa & Salo are better than Komisarek & Beauchemin.
 
corksens said:
Salo has played more games over the past 3 seasons than Beauchemin.
Click to expand...

Sneaky, sneaky.

Last five seasons

Sami Salo: 317 games (63.4/season)
Francois Beauchemin: 327 games (65.4/season)

Beauchemin's injury-riddled 2008-09 season was the only full season in five years in the league that he has failed to reach at least 71 games. Salo hasn't played more than 68 games since 2003-04 and only once in his career has he hit the 70 game mark. His nickname should be Mr. Glass with that type of history.
 
That's a pretty significant difference in the Top 2 blueliners. Too much of a difference, IMO, to be made up with Salo, Bieksa vs. Komisarek, Beauchemin and the others.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
Why did the Leafs tighten up defensively in front of Corey Schwab when Joseph was injured during the 2002 season? Teams tend to play much more defensively when they're in front of a lesser talent between the pipes because they can't afford to take as many risks on the offensive end of things. This is ridiculously common in various sports. In baseball, for example, lesser pitchers are often the beneficiary of better run support while guys like Halladay struggle to get any offensive support because the team can't afford to lay back in that situation.
Click to expand...
Sure, but at the very least, they put up similar numbers between both goalies, one below average and one above average (although only slightly last year).
 
The overall difference in quality between the two most important players at a position should be valued much more highly than supporting or complimentary parts and the differences between the two clubs in that area. To suggest otherwise is downright bizarre. Do the Leafs have a better forward core than New Jersey because they have plenty of quality third-liners or do Zajac, Parise, Arnott, Elias, etc. make up for that difference on top? It's an easy question to answer.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
Why did the Leafs tighten up defensively in front of Corey Schwab when Joseph was injured during the 2002 season? Teams tend to play much more defensively when they're in front of a lesser talent between the pipes because they can't afford to take as many risks on the offensive end of things. This is ridiculously common in various sports. In baseball, for example, lesser pitchers are often the beneficiary of better run support while guys like Halladay struggle to get any offensive support because the team can't afford to lay back in that situation.
Click to expand...

Honestly Jays, I don't even agree with this.

Don't get me wrong, a team may tweak it's game plan somewhat in front of an inferior goaltender, but I think the occam's razor applies here. The simplest answer is likely the right answer. Raycroft played well last year.

Now, if the defence did tighten up and their was a significant drop in shot volume, than maybe I buy your answer in this case, but individual play from players (particularly goalies) can differ wildly over the course of their careers (JS Aubin anyone?) and I think 2009-10 was more of a case of Raycroft having a stretch of solid play than anything else.

It's not like he doesn't have a history of being able to play some at the NHL level, he's just shown that he can't sustain it.
 
MindzEye said:
You'll of course ignore this point despite all the evidence for it, but SV% is the prime indicator for individual quality of play from the goaltending position.

Raycroft posted a .911% last year, whether that was a case of small sample size containing a streak not indicative of his overall quality as a goalie or not is something we could argue separately, but he performed well last season.

Defensively, Vancouver averaged 29.5 SA/G (11th) last season with 991 blocked shots (24th) and 570 takeaways (14th)

Toronto averaged 29.8 SA/G (13th) with 1218 blocks (7th) and 579 takeaways (13th)

So yes, the difference in GAA between the two teams was clearly in the different quality of goaltending they received: Vancouver .910 (14th), Toronto .892 (30th)
Click to expand...
That's quite the spin job. There is no need to reference SV% at this moment.

The Canucks as a team (and as a defensive unit) allowed less goals against with Raycroft in net than with Luongo in net. That suggests that both goalies were playing in front of an equally talented team.
 
MindzEye said:
Honestly Jays, I don't even agree with this.

Don't get me wrong, a team may tweak it's game plan somewhat in front of an inferior goaltender, but I think the occam's razor applies here. The simplest answer is likely the right answer. Raycroft played well last year.

Now, if the defence did tighten up and their was a significant drop in shot volume, than maybe I buy your answer in this case, but individual play from players (particularly goalies) can differ wildly over the course of their careers (JS Aubin anyone?) and I think 2009-10 was more of a case of Raycroft having a stretch of solid play than anything else.

It's not like he doesn't have a history of being able to play some at the NHL level, he's just shown that he can't sustain it.
Click to expand...

I never suggested otherwise. However, over small sample sizes (Raycroft played a limited number of games last season) we can see some statistical outliers that would likely never hold up over the course of a full season. This is why I can understand and even accept the argument that Montreal did an excellent job defensively at containing most of Washington's shots to the outside in a seven game playoff series like their fans have suggested, but to suggest for instance that a defence could continue to allow 40+ "harmless" shots over a full slate of games and not suffer defensively in the goals against column is exceedingly unlikely. The same principle applies. We see weird statistical trends in small samples all the time.
 
MindzEye said:
It would require a hell of an argument to prove that Bieksa & Salo are better than Komisarek & Beauchemin.
Click to expand...
Why? I'd take Bieksa and Salo over those two...

Komisarek is limited, and Beahchemin is overrated.

Bieksa and Salo are both good puck movers, reliable defensively, and can shoot the puck.

Komisarek definitely brings down that pairing.
 
The Leafs have three men that have been selected as all-stars on their defence corps and two guys that have multiple top ten finishes in Norrris Trophy voting. Vancouver can't claim a single player with either of those pedigrees.
 
corksens said:
Bieksa and Salo are both good puck movers, reliable defensively, and can shoot the puck.
Click to expand...

Again: Salo is constantly injured and has only ever played at least 70 games in a season once in his career (and that was close to seven years ago). He's also not a good "puck-mover." Bieksa is solid physical and can play the point on the PP but he's very unreliable defensively and out of position far too often to be a reliable top-pairing guy.
 
Why are the Leafs better?
Click to expand...

This is literally what happens in every argument with Sens fans on this board.
Sens fan makes argument/claim.
Instead of the Sens fan supplying data/logical points to back up their argument, it's almost always the Leaf fans putting in the effort. And in the end, Sens fans likely ignore all the stats/logic anyway. Happens every single time. I don't know how PTBNL and Zeke keep up with it sometimes, I really don't.
 
JaysCyYoung said:
The Leafs have three men that have been selected as all-stars on their defence corps and two guys that have multiple top ten finishes in Norrris Trophy voting. Vancouver can't claim a single player with either of those pedigrees.
Click to expand...
Komisarek's joke of an All-Star appearance means jack shit.
 
hockeylover said:
This is literally what happens in every argument with Sens fans on this board.
Sens fan makes argument/claim.
Instead of the Sens fan supplying data/logical points to back up their argument, it's almost always the Leaf fans putting in the effort. And in the end, Sens fans likely ignore all the stats/logic anyway. Happens every single time. I don't know how PTBNL and Zeke keep up with it sometimes, I really don't.
Click to expand...
Why are the Leafs better?

You seem more emphatically behind your position than I am mine...back it up.
 
corksens said:
That's quite the spin job. There is no need to reference SV% at this moment.
Click to expand...

You're the one who brought a goaltending dependent team defensive statistic into the argument. You created the need for context, and I provided that context.

The Canucks as a team (and as a defensive unit) allowed less goals against with Raycroft in net than with Luongo in net. That suggests that both goalies were playing in front of an equally talented team.
Click to expand...

What you're missing though is that a defensive unit doesn't allow goals, they allow shots. Goaltenders allow goals.

and of course the goalies were playing in front of an equally talented team....it was the same ****ing team.
 
corksens said:
Why? I'd take Bieksa and Salo over those two...

Komisarek is limited, and Beahchemin is overrated.

Bieksa and Salo are both good puck movers, reliable defensively, and can shoot the puck.

Komisarek definitely brings down that pairing.
Click to expand...

You apparently don't watch Vancouver play very often. Bieksa isn't "reliable" defensively.

Calling a guy who played 27 minutes a night on a cup winning team "over rated" is a nice touch as well I suppose.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top