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Leaf Rumours

Anyone who thinks depth is more important than two legit #1 dmen, in ranking a defense is just dumb.

No other way to put it.
 
Yeah, as much as I do think the Leafs D is overrated, Vancouver has so many question marks on their blueline it's not funny.

As it stands now, the only teams that really look better than Toronto's D are Detroit and Chicago. I'd probably put Toronto next, followed closely by a bunch of teams like Nashville, Vancouver, Montreal, and Philly (in some order). However, if/when Toronto deals Kaberle, if you don't replace him with anyone external, then Toronto falls into or maybe even below that next pack I listed.

I could definitely see a case for Vancouver's D > Toronto's D - Kaberle. But as it stands now, really hard to argue. Vancouver's guys have a lot of potential (ie. all of Bieksa, Edler, Salo, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Erhoff have the capability to put up 30 or 40+ points, which is freaking impressive), but they also all have lots of issues.
 
Vancouver's blueline is impressive with it's total amount of solid 2-way defenders who can all put up decent numbers. But there's only one puck, and only one top PP unit. With the addition of Ballard & Hamhuis, I have a hard time seeing how all of them are going to get enough minutes and opportunity to put up 30+ points.
 
Why are the Leafs better?

You seem more emphatically behind your position than I am mine...back it up.
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Phaneuf and Kaberle are significantly better than Hamhuis and Ballard, both of whom give you pretty limited offense in comparison.

Hamhuis gives you ~25 points a year over the last three years while Phaneuf, albeit a lackluster offensive performance this season, has averaged closer to 50 points a year over the last three and is far more likely to be in the 40-50 point range.

Ballard, much like Hamhuis, has also averaged around 30 points a game for the last three years. Kaberle has averaged around 48 points a year over the last three years (yes, I on-paced the second of those three years) and is more or less a sure bet for 40-50 every year.

I think this is a huge, huge obstacle to overcome for the Canucks in this comparison. The Top 2 for these teams isn't close - so for the Canucks to be better, Salo and Bieksa would have to have a huge advantage over Komisarek and Beauchemin, and Edler-Ehrhoff a similarly huge advantage over Schenn-Gunnarsson. I simply don't see it and I suspect all the stats would agree with me if I were to keep going.

Note: Your rebuttal here is likely to be "IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE OFFENSE!!!1! so I'll point out that a few days ago after signing Gonchar you admitted to Zeke that offense from your blueline was crucial and you were glad to see your team move in this direction
 
UWHabs said:
Yeah, as much as I do think the Leafs D is overrated, Vancouver has so many question marks on their blueline it's not funny.

As it stands now, the only teams that really look better than Toronto's D are Detroit and Chicago. I'd probably put Toronto next, followed closely by a bunch of teams like Nashville, Vancouver, Montreal, and Philly (in some order). However, if/when Toronto deals Kaberle, if you don't replace him with anyone external, then Toronto falls into or maybe even below that next pack I listed.

I could definitely see a case for Vancouver's D > Toronto's D - Kaberle. But as it stands now, really hard to argue. Vancouver's guys have a lot of potential (ie. all of Bieksa, Edler, Salo, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Erhoff have the capability to put up 30 or 40+ points, which is freaking impressive), but they also all have lots of issues.
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Thus, my point when I said top 3. Now you can argue Nashville's blueline is also very good, so in hindsight maybe I should've said top 5 to avoid all these silly arguments.

But I agree Detroit and Chicago have better bluelines than us. Detroit mainly because Lidstrom comes back for another season. Whenever he retires, or stops playing at that same high level, then Detroit falls back.

Of course you gotta respect the Hawks' blueline, and through all the salary dumps they've still kept their blueline intact. It tells you good GMs realize how important it is to have a good group of defensemen.
 
Kaberle > Ehrhoff
Phaneuf >> Bieksa
Beauchemin = Salo
Komisarek = Mitchell
Gunnarsson < Edler
Schenn >> O'Brien

Kaberle = Ehrhoff
Phaneuf > Ballard
Komisarek < Hamhuis
Beauchemin > Salo
Gunnarsson = Edler
Schenn > O'Brien
 
hockeylover said:
This is literally what happens in every argument with Sens fans on this board.
Sens fan makes argument/claim.
Instead of the Sens fan supplying data/logical points to back up their argument, it's almost always the Leaf fans putting in the effort. And in the end, Sens fans likely ignore all the stats/logic anyway. Happens every single time. I don't know how PTBNL and Zeke keep up with it sometimes, I really don't.
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I'm quoting myself here.

This is exactly what just happened.
 
Looking at the number, Vancouver's defense is actually seriously very strong offensively.

Edler should put up 40+ points.
Ehrhoff is a solid 40-50 point guy
Ballard looks like a 30-point guy
Hamhuis is a 25-30 point guy
Salo should put up 25-30 in about 60-65 games
Bieksa is also a 30-40 point guy

At the low end for all of them, that adds up to 190 points, which is more than the top team in the NHL got from their blueline last year. I can't commend on their defensive games, but that's a seriously strong offensive blueline.
 
let's remember that the Canucks are currently trying to give away Bieksa for free to get under the cap.
 
UWHabs said:
Looking at the number, Vancouver's defense is actually seriously very strong offensively.

Edler should put up 40+ points.
Ehrhoff is a solid 40-50 point guy
Ballard looks like a 30-point guy
Hamhuis is a 25-30 point guy
Salo should put up 25-30 in about 60-65 games
Bieksa is also a 30-40 point guy

At the low end for all of them, that adds up to 190 points, which is more than the top team in the NHL got from their blueline last year. I can't commend on their defensive games, but that's a seriously strong offensive blueline.
Click to expand...

I think it's a really good blueline, I just think Phaneuf and Kaberle are that much better than anyone they have - it's really hard to make up for that from 3-6. If we move Kaberle for a forward, you've got an argument.
 
zeke said:
let's remember that the Canucks are currently trying to give away Bieksa for free to get under the cap.
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And you guys are trying to trade Kaberle for help up front. If you're comparing defensemen only, either count both (what the teams have right now) or neither (what likely both teams will have come October).
 
At the low end for all of them, that adds up to 190 points, which is more than the top team in the NHL got from their blueline last year.
Click to expand...

and there's a reason for that....there simply isn't enough opportunity to all do that on one blueline.

Someone is going to get the short end of the stick, and with 2 new guys in their vying for minutes, 2 of them are likely to get a fairly short end of the stick.

Don't be too surprised if you see Hamhuis come in at around 25 points, ditto for Ballard with the superior offensive pair of Ehrhoff & Edler getting the lion's share of 1st unit PP minutes. Bieksa lose minutes to the new additions and come in around 25-30 points.

and I hate to be a bitch about it...but Ehrhoff's career high is 44 points...he's not a 40-50 point guy. If I have to get reminded all the time that 28 goal Nik Antropov isn't a 25-30 goal scorer because he's never scored 30, I'm not letting a 44 point career high defender be called a 40-50 pt defender unchallenged.

Bieksa and Salo also have a history of injury issues (not mentioning that Bieksa is apparently on the block and likely to be traded at some point this summer)
 
UWHabs said:
Looking at the number, Vancouver's defense is actually seriously very strong offensively.

Edler should put up 40+ points.
Ehrhoff is a solid 40-50 point guy
Ballard looks like a 30-point guy
Hamhuis is a 25-30 point guy
Salo should put up 25-30 in about 60-65 games
Bieksa is also a 30-40 point guy

At the low end for all of them, that adds up to 190 points, which is more than the top team in the NHL got from their blueline last year. I can't commend on their defensive games, but that's a seriously strong offensive blueline.
Click to expand...

And how exactly are those six players going to get enough minutes to accomplish that?
 
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