JaysCyYoung
Legend
I don't know how many more times it needs to be debunked that Staal has received anything approaching third-line minutes for those insisting that he's a future star to accept.
Leaf Rumours
- Thread starter Hoss
- Start date
uncus
Well-known member
LOL and this coming from you lol I`ll take that as a compliment.
If kaberle is so good why wouldnt the leafs have gotten one half decent offer for him? Also, you obviously pay no attention to any games over the past 3 years because the guy has an absolute penchant for taking it to the blueline, stopping all the momentum, then shooting it in.
3 years ago kaberle was a fantastic player ...... since then he has played at that level once in a blue moon.
Me, this free agent season, I put all my money into Markov before I even think about kaberle.
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uncus
Well-known member
Make it for the top defensive player, including dmen, that way really good defensive defencmen get recognized instead of being passed over by someone who gets 60 points from the backend and is not as strong defensively.
uncus
Well-known member
A scoring winger, but why not go after a winger that has proven himself like an iginla? Versteeg was an important part of the chicago cup run, but Stall on the other hand has been a core guy in a cup run, and IMHO has more top end potential.
If I am Pittsburg I see if I can get Iggy for stall before I would trade Versteeg for Stall.
number17
Mod Squad
Often highly touted players who've been put in unfavorable circumstances get the benefit of the doubt they would perform much better if given the right circumstances ... people expect offensive players to explode out of the NJ defensive system (and that almost never happens), same as people who expect players leaving a bad team (FLA, NYI ... TOR?) to explode offensively ... again, that rarely happens.
So we're sitting here wondering what Staal could do if he plays top line minutes. What is interesting, is what happened to Staal's number when Malkin was injured, or played on Crosby's wing.
For a team that's so weak on the wing, you'd think if Staal can handle 2nd line minutes they'd have put Malkin up with Crosby more often.
So we're sitting here wondering what Staal could do if he plays top line minutes. What is interesting, is what happened to Staal's number when Malkin was injured, or played on Crosby's wing.
For a team that's so weak on the wing, you'd think if Staal can handle 2nd line minutes they'd have put Malkin up with Crosby more often.
wiseguy1
Well-known member
JackBurton
Well-known member
Cox has been more grounded in regards to the Leafs in recent months.
I too don't get people saying they have nothing to offer. And I'm very critical of the team's overall direction.
I would trade Macarthur. Imo, he's maxed-out what he'll do. Trade him while his value is at it's highest. I'm less enthralled with trading Versteeg right now.
I too don't get people saying they have nothing to offer. And I'm very critical of the team's overall direction.
I would trade Macarthur. Imo, he's maxed-out what he'll do. Trade him while his value is at it's highest. I'm less enthralled with trading Versteeg right now.
LeafGm
Well-known member
Hey, I've seen the guy play a lot too. Besides whatever regular season games I've seen him in, I've also seen him in about 50-60 playoff games over the last three years, which is not an insignificant sample size. And from what I've seen, I do not see a player with serious offensive potential who is being held back by the role he's being asked to play. I'd bet the farm that what you see is what you get with this guy. The guy just isn't capable of creating a significant number of offensive chances. And if he was, he'd help out a great deal. Sure, they like having their "super-elite 3rd liner", but with all the problems Pittsburgh's had filling out their top-3 lines around Crosby and Malkin, they'd be overjoyed if they could move Staal into the second line center spot with Malkin on his wing and all of a sudden start seeing 60+ point pace production from him. But whenever they've tried it, it just hasn't worked. For what it's worth, one of my best friends is a Pittsburgh Penguins fan going back to the Lemieux days, and he agrees.
When you're trading away an elite player, you never get fair value. Especially in the salary cap world. Just look at the pile of crap we traded for Dion Phaneuf. Or the returns that Chris Pronger has received in trades---a lot of "B" prospects, "B" players and low first round draft picks is the extent of what he's been traded for, and this is a guy who's been widely considered to be one of the top defensemen in the league for years now, and single-handedly dragged Edmonton to the Cup finals and won the Cup with Anaheim in back-to-back years. I have no doubt that Burke received a lot of the same type of offers. Some decent prospects, decent draft picks and good second liners, but nothing that would make us a better hockey club when the subtraction of Kaberle is taken into consideration.
And honestly---if you've been watching Kaberle this year, and have concluded anything other than he's the Leafs' best defenseman (and arguably best player), then you simply don't know much about hockey. Period. Kaberle didn't have his best season last year (and still managed to finish with 49 points) and he suffered through injuries the previous season, but played well when he was in the lineup. And this year, he's on pace to put up his customary 50+ points, he moves the puck better than anyone else on our blueline, plays smart in his own zone, has been taking a lot of shots (he has more than any other Leaf defenseman, and all but four of our forwards) and has been the only one of our defensemen who's consistently been staying out of minus territory all season (he's currently the only Leaf defenseman that's not a minus player). And if Burke doesn't re-sign him, or attempts to peddle him for some shitty return at the deadline, then all the Leaf fans who've been bitching for years about how Kaberle's a soft Euro who doesn't shoot the puck will be crying the blues about how shitty our defense looks, and how well Kaberle's doing with his new team.
As for Andrei Markov, phenomenal defenseman, but he's got some very serious injury question marks now. He's now had to have surgery on both his knees and an ankle, and he's missed some pretty significant time over the past couple of years. I have no doubt the Habs will still re-sign him, but I'm sure even Hab fans are more than a little worried about his future at this point.
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JaysCyYoung
Legend
I can't think of a single time in the history of the award that this has happened.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
Is LeafGM a bad poster or am I missing something? He's one of the most credible, consistently intelligent voices on the forum. If you were intending to be disparaging you simply embarrassed yourself.
da_next_kid
Well-known member
+1
LeafGm
Well-known member
Heh, thanks for the support guys. To be fair, it's not really that far offside that he took a shot at me in his post, considering my first response to him was a little blunt, to say the least. But man...sometimes I just come across a post that's so completely wrong and out there that I just can't help myself. I mean, honestly, there are still posters on this board that don't appreciate what Tomas Kaberle does for this team after he's been a top defenseman for us for 12 years? I'd understand if it was coming from a guy working for Sportsnet's panel, a guy calling into Toronto sports talk radio or a troll from another board. But among the Leaf fans on this board, I honestly didn't realize there were any Kaberle-haters left.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
It really is remarkable that that type of attitude regarding Kaberle could persist. He's a four-time All-Star, multiple Olympian, and second place on the franchise's list of highest-scoring defencemen above a Hall of Famer and one of the most recognizeable Canadian icons ever. I'd say he's earned the right to respect for what he has accomplished in a Leafs jersey, and he's certainly been our most reliable all-around defenceman yet again this season, playing in all situations, being offensively productive, shooting more, and getting involved physically.
The kid scored 29 goals as an 18 year old rookie and has two 49 point seasons to go with his three 20+ goal campaigns. All that and a Selke nomination by the age of 21... and somehow his potential is just a big bodied 20 goal 45-50 point player??? C'mon.
Nobody can claim that they know what he could do as a #1 center but I assume it would be a bit better than what he's done as a 3rd liner.
Let's look at Versteeg's potential from the age of 21... oh look, he's going to be a potential smallish 2 goal and 4 point winger.
Not that there's anything wrong with it because we all do it with our teams to varying degrees but he definitely wears a dark tinted pair of blue and white colored glasses. He's up there with zeke and PTBNL in my opinion.
Like i said though, nothing wrong with that. I actually have LeafGM, zeke and PTBNL near the top of my list of favorite posters along with yourself and a few others on this board. Always good for a solid debate that will likely result in me yelling (maybe not quite yelling) at my monitor... "C'mon!!!"
JaysCyYoung
Legend
Well, I will say that I think that it's perfectly clear that we're almost assuredly all aware that the Leafs are terrible and that we have some major organizational flaws. Very few posters on here would dispute that. The disagreement amongst us stems from the causes of that. So to pick on a player that has consistently remained one of the bright spots for this franchise for over a dozen years just strikes me as ludicrous and missing the point of the causes of our ineptude entirely. The goaltending? Sure. The special teams? Of course. Kaberle? **** off.
At the moment I am thinking more about zeke and LeafGM arguing that Versteeg is better than Jordan Staal.
I clearly remember all the arguments about how good Kessel is and would be because he scored at a 40 goal pace at the age of 21. Yet somehow when you have a kid that scored 29 goals (including 8 SHG) as an 18 year old and then put up a couple 49 point seasons before the age of 22... he's pretty much peaked. He's done this while being used on the 3rd line in a defensive role. Even the most skeptical of this assertion would certainly agree that he has been used in somewhat of a defensive role rather than a top 6 offensive role.
I clearly remember all the arguments about how good Kessel is and would be because he scored at a 40 goal pace at the age of 21. Yet somehow when you have a kid that scored 29 goals (including 8 SHG) as an 18 year old and then put up a couple 49 point seasons before the age of 22... he's pretty much peaked. He's done this while being used on the 3rd line in a defensive role. Even the most skeptical of this assertion would certainly agree that he has been used in somewhat of a defensive role rather than a top 6 offensive role.