LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
What???????
Leaf Rumours
- Thread starter Hoss
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JaysCyYoung
Legend
Of course Bourque played in the era with two of the three best players in the history of the sport so that's a stupid statement to make as an argument of "being better."
Pronger84
Active member
Yup, I'd say he's arguably one of the best defencemen. The thing I like about Lidstrom is he plays defence the way its supposed to be played: By using speed, postioning and smarts. None of this knocking guys on they're ass bs. Lidstrom FTW
JaysCyYoung
Legend
The most I will possibly concede is that they are on common ground, but there is no argument out there that will convince me that Lidstrom is any better than Monsieur Bourque.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
And of course Bourque had perfected the exact same style that Lidstrom gets so much appreciation for a full decade and a bit before Lidstrom came into the league from Sweden.
leafman101
Well-known member
Other than Lidstrom can't hear Bourque through all his rings.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
bourque was a lot more physical than lidstrom.
leafman101
Well-known member
[video=youtube;NaiN8HjEy74]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaiN8HjEy74[/video]
JaysCyYoung
Legend
Nick Kypreos >>> Mats Sundin.
He can plug one ear of course and partially not hear what Sundin is saying!
He can plug one ear of course and partially not hear what Sundin is saying!
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
I think i take Lidstrom over Bourque.
I'd like to see what Lidstrom wouldv'e done in his prime in the 80's and early 90's
I'd like to see what Lidstrom wouldv'e done in his prime in the 80's and early 90's
leafman101
Well-known member
Little bit of a difference between one stanley cup tipping the scales in favour of a 4th line goon over a first ballot hall of famer, than 4 rings tipping the scale for one top 4 defenseman of all time over another one.
I'm not knocking Bourque, he was one of the best ever. I'm just saying. Lidstrom's career is about the best any player can hope for without being Bobby, Wayne or Mario.
I'm not knocking Bourque, he was one of the best ever. I'm just saying. Lidstrom's career is about the best any player can hope for without being Bobby, Wayne or Mario.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
Lidstrom is fifth on my list of all-time defencemen.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Ray Bourque
3. Doug Harvey
4. Eddie Shore
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
Which is a fantastic, all-time place to be. But he's getting overrated because of the weak era in which the second-half of his career (and virtually all of his accomplishments) have been compiled in. Strength of competition matters to me.
1. Bobby Orr
2. Ray Bourque
3. Doug Harvey
4. Eddie Shore
5. Nicklas Lidstrom
Which is a fantastic, all-time place to be. But he's getting overrated because of the weak era in which the second-half of his career (and virtually all of his accomplishments) have been compiled in. Strength of competition matters to me.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
lidstrom was criminally underrated for the first decade of his career. he was considered the product of the wings' system, and it was thought that he benefited from playing with some of the most talented players of all time.
what has become clear in the years since yzerman retired, fedorov left and shanahan got old, is that all of those guys benefited far more from playing with lidstrom than lidstrom benefited from playing with them. meanwhile, the wings system is as much a product of having lidstrom than any other factor.
what has become clear in the years since yzerman retired, fedorov left and shanahan got old, is that all of those guys benefited far more from playing with lidstrom than lidstrom benefited from playing with them. meanwhile, the wings system is as much a product of having lidstrom than any other factor.
leafman101
Well-known member
I really have a hard time believing the argument that guys like Coffey, Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens, Housely etc were that much better than Pronger, Chara, Neidermayer, Blake, Zubov, Gonchar etc.
Nostalgia always seems to play too big of a role in these things. But whatever.
And yeah. Lidstrom just didn't get the credit he deserved until later in his career, unlike Bourque.
Nostalgia always seems to play too big of a role in these things. But whatever.
And yeah. Lidstrom just didn't get the credit he deserved until later in his career, unlike Bourque.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
Zubov is not a Hall of Famer. Gonchar is not a Hall of Famer.
All of Denis Potvin, Rod Langway, Larry Robinson, Borje Salming, Paul Coffey, Scott Stevens, Al MacInnis, Chris Chelios, Brian Leetch, and Rob Blake (whom Bourque had to contend with for Norrises during his playing days) are. And Lidstrom was in that category until 2001 as well.
I agree with that in certain instances. In other instances though, you have people like Jeremy Roenick claiming that he was a better player than Syl Apps (a man who played in the CFL and several other competitive disciplines in addition to be the best centre in the league for the Leafs), or the TSN panel asking if Crosby is the best Penguin ever. There's as much over-estimation and reverance for the present as there is for the past, which is often discredited because the players did not have the advantage of social media and 24/7 TSN hockey panels fellating them on a daily basis.
All of Denis Potvin, Rod Langway, Larry Robinson, Borje Salming, Paul Coffey, Scott Stevens, Al MacInnis, Chris Chelios, Brian Leetch, and Rob Blake (whom Bourque had to contend with for Norrises during his playing days) are. And Lidstrom was in that category until 2001 as well.
I agree with that in certain instances. In other instances though, you have people like Jeremy Roenick claiming that he was a better player than Syl Apps (a man who played in the CFL and several other competitive disciplines in addition to be the best centre in the league for the Leafs), or the TSN panel asking if Crosby is the best Penguin ever. There's as much over-estimation and reverance for the present as there is for the past, which is often discredited because the players did not have the advantage of social media and 24/7 TSN hockey panels fellating them on a daily basis.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
And Bourque was a First Team All-Star selection the day he retired less than a decade ago. It's not like he played in the 1950s. Not sure how much nostalgia you can get out of that.
leafman101
Well-known member
If you include guys like Potvin, Langway, Robinson and Salming, then you can just as easily inlcude MacInnis, Chelios, Leetch, Bourque etc for Lidstrom's first couple of Norris's.
There is a lot of overlap between eras.
There is a lot of overlap between eras.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
No, it's not the same.
Potvin won a Norris Trophy the year before Bourque came into the league in 1979-80. He was a First Team All-Star and a Second Team All-Star selection during the course of Bourque's career.
Langway won two Norris Trophies that many observers felt should have gone to Bourque in the first instance and Coffey in the second instance entirely on the strength of his defensive prowess. He's still the only modern-era shutdown defenceman to have won a Norris, let alone two. He was in his prime during Bourque's first few campaigns of high-level play and a clear competitor for hardware.
Robinson was coming off of a runner-up selection for the Norris Trophy to Potvin and would be a First All-Star Team selection again in Bourque's rookie year. He would be named to two addition Second All-Star Teams during the period Bourque was a First All-Star Team selection. He was clearly competition for hardware at that point too.
Salming is the closest competitor that you've listed in terms of having his career on the downswing when Bourque established himself as an elite defenceman, but even this future Hall of Famer would be named to two additional Second All-Star Teams during Bourque's period despite playing for the horrendous Leafs squads of the 1980s. He was clearly an elite player for another seven seasons or so after Bourque entered the NHL.
MacInnis only had one more year of high-end play left in him (having beaten out Bourque and Lidstrom for the Norris in 1999 already) in 2002-03. Other than that he was clearly not competitive anymore and only had that elite 2002-03 season after Lidstrom's first win. He was 40 by that point.
Chelios' last elite season came in 2001-02 when he finished second to his teammate in Lidstrom and was one of the selections for the First All-Star Team. He would continue on in a supporting capacity as Detroit's number four or five guy but he was clearly past his expiration date as an elite defenceman following that season, the final great note in his career.
Leetch beat out Lidstrom for two Norris Trophies during the course of his career but was never the same after 1996-97, his second and final year of his two Norrises. He had a great offensive year during Lidstrom's first win in 2000-01 with 79 points (outscoring Lidstrom by 8 points that season). This is the closest guy that you've mentioned so far.
Potvin won a Norris Trophy the year before Bourque came into the league in 1979-80. He was a First Team All-Star and a Second Team All-Star selection during the course of Bourque's career.
Langway won two Norris Trophies that many observers felt should have gone to Bourque in the first instance and Coffey in the second instance entirely on the strength of his defensive prowess. He's still the only modern-era shutdown defenceman to have won a Norris, let alone two. He was in his prime during Bourque's first few campaigns of high-level play and a clear competitor for hardware.
Robinson was coming off of a runner-up selection for the Norris Trophy to Potvin and would be a First All-Star Team selection again in Bourque's rookie year. He would be named to two addition Second All-Star Teams during the period Bourque was a First All-Star Team selection. He was clearly competition for hardware at that point too.
Salming is the closest competitor that you've listed in terms of having his career on the downswing when Bourque established himself as an elite defenceman, but even this future Hall of Famer would be named to two additional Second All-Star Teams during Bourque's period despite playing for the horrendous Leafs squads of the 1980s. He was clearly an elite player for another seven seasons or so after Bourque entered the NHL.
MacInnis only had one more year of high-end play left in him (having beaten out Bourque and Lidstrom for the Norris in 1999 already) in 2002-03. Other than that he was clearly not competitive anymore and only had that elite 2002-03 season after Lidstrom's first win. He was 40 by that point.
Chelios' last elite season came in 2001-02 when he finished second to his teammate in Lidstrom and was one of the selections for the First All-Star Team. He would continue on in a supporting capacity as Detroit's number four or five guy but he was clearly past his expiration date as an elite defenceman following that season, the final great note in his career.
Leetch beat out Lidstrom for two Norris Trophies during the course of his career but was never the same after 1996-97, his second and final year of his two Norrises. He had a great offensive year during Lidstrom's first win in 2000-01 with 79 points (outscoring Lidstrom by 8 points that season). This is the closest guy that you've mentioned so far.