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OT: MLB Thread

Montreal Expos
Players on 2015 @BaseballHall ballot who played for Expos: Tim Raines, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, Cliff Floyd, Randy Johnson, Lee Smith.
 
Jeff Passan
Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz and Craig Biggio have been elected to the Hall of Fame. It's the biggest BBWAA class since 1955.


Randy Johnson gets in at 97.1 percent. Pedro Martinez at 91.1 percent. John Smoltz at 82.9 percent and Craig Biggio at 82.7 percent.
 
cliff floyd ‏
Congrats to my boy @45PedroMartinez...well deserved saw you grow to HOF status from our Montreal Expos days..love ya man!
 
Montreal Expos ‏
Pedro Martinez with the Expos: 118 games, 55-33, 3.06 ERA, 843 Ks in 797.1 innings. 1997 Cy Young. ASG 1996 & 1997.
 
Аrpon Basu ‏
I hate how upset I get every year over Tim Raines not getting in to the Baseball Hall of Fame. I really hate it.
 
WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
If Pedro had spent most of his career as an Expo he'd be in the same boat as Raines is in today.
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Sorry, but Raines (though I loved him) isn't a HOF'er by MLB standards. His speed (SB) game virtually vanished overnight by 1989, not a career .300+ hitter, didn't hit 200+ home-runs.

Just don't see HOF numbers to justify selection.
 
Sal_Butera said:
Sorry, but Raines (though I loved him) isn't a HOF'er by MLB standards. His speed (SB) game virtually vanished overnight by 1989, not a career .300+ hitter, didn't hit 200+ home-runs.

Just don't see HOF numbers to justify selection.
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He most certainly is a hall of famer. There's ton of articles out there detailing how he is certainly deserving. Good one to start with: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof09/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3825493

The essence of the arguments are:
-He got on base a heck of a lot. He reached base more times than Gwynn did, and had just about as many extra base hits as Gwynn did, but stole 500 bases more than him. Yes, hits are more valuable than walks, and Gwynn is almost certainly a more deserving hall candidate than Raines, but one guy got in on his first try easily, and Raines is still waiting.
-He's better than Lou Brock, who is in the hall. His stats all around are just better.

He's not a hall of famer like Pedro or Johnson, who you'd have to blind to leave them off the ballot, I'll admit. But his numbers are very strong, and would generally rank around average for a Hall of Fame caliber player. And someone who's essentially an average HOF player should be in the Hall.
 
UWHabs said:
He most certainly is a hall of famer. There's ton of articles out there detailing how he is certainly deserving. Good one to start with: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof09/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3825493

The essence of the arguments are:
-He got on base a heck of a lot. He reached base more times than Gwynn did, and had just about as many extra base hits as Gwynn did, but stole 500 bases more than him. Yes, hits are more valuable than walks, and Gwynn is almost certainly a more deserving hall candidate than Raines, but one guy got in on his first try easily, and Raines is still waiting.
-He's better than Lou Brock, who is in the hall. His stats all around are just better.

He's not a hall of famer like Pedro or Johnson, who you'd have to blind to leave them off the ballot, I'll admit. But his numbers are very strong, and would generally rank around average for a Hall of Fame caliber player. And someone who's essentially an average HOF player should be in the Hall.
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First off, Lou Brock defined what a lead off hitter should be & he did it during the dead ball era, his numbers pro-rated to 180 forward would be much higher.

Second, analytics is a tool GM's use not baseball writers (who do the voting), OBP & OPS are meaningless to HOF selection. The basics are bat avg, HR, SB, RS for non pitchers & awards - batting championships, MVP etc..

I'll say it again starting 1989 Raines numbers fell off the cliff, he was on a 1st ballot HOF pace prior. Growing up Raines vs Ricky Henderson was the comparison, and everything I read was split 50/50 as to who was better, then as Raines' approached 30 his game tailed off & Henderson kept going & going (steroids may have had a lot to do with it but alas...)

Look, I'd love it if Raines gets in, will never forget that 1987 May Saturday afternoon, NBC televised game of the week from Shea Stadium, where Raines playing his first game, after the off season collusion scandal, hit for the cycle (went 4 for 5) & led the Expos to an extra inning win - one of the most thrilling games I ever watched, but that's emotion vs reality. Raines was the team MVP in 1987 IMO, even though Wallach had his best/career year.

Reality is Raines game tailed off from HOF player, as he approached 30.
 
He effectively tailed off after 87. His 83-87 period from what I heard he was arguably the best player in the game in that time. I thought by your post that you were a naysayer for him, not that you were merely pointing out that you thought MLB voters might not elect him.

I think he will make it in in 2017, his last chance. Next year Griffey will obviously make it, and Piazza should add enough to make it in. Bagwell I expect to get to the mid to high 60s, and Raines will likely be in that low to mid 60s range as well. But in 2017 nobody new who's an obvious first ballot guy get added, and I wouldn't be shocked if Bagwell and Raines get enough to make it in that year. It will be very close whether he makes that final push, but I think he's close enough now that he can make it.
 
I'm shocked Biggio made it over Bagwell, absolutely shocked - but again baseball writers who vote, take position played vs their historical peers into consideration. Biggio was drafted as & started his career as a catcher, who hit leadoff (speed quotient), even though he shifted to 2nd base & later in his career to the outfield, he was likely evaluated as a second baseman - who traditionally pre-1990's were not offensively gifted.

Raines was drafted & played minors as a 2nd baseman, had he started his Expo career as one, he may very well already be in the HOF - but he was defensively challenged, hence, the shift to LF from the start of his MLB career.
 
Yeah, a "2B" with 3000 hits who doesn't have any steroid allegations was obvious to make it ahead of a 1B in Bagwell who people likely wrongly associate with PEDs.
 
If a ham-n-egger like Bill Mazeroski can make the HOF, essentially on the strength of one at bat in Game 7 of the World Series, then Raines can be in too. And while the writers don't go in for the advance stats it doesn't change the fact that the name of the game is scoring runs. You score runs by getting on base. HOW you get on base shouldn't matter more than how many times you got there. Raines got a lot of walks. Gwynne got a lot of hits. Bottom line is that Raines got on base (and due to his superb base stealing acumen got into scoring position) as often if not more often than Gwynne, who was voted in on his first try. It is beyond stupid that Raines should be made to wait this long and possibly not get in at all, when so many others less deserving are already in. And why? Because he didn't reach some arbitrary round number that idiot sports writers can remember without writing it down on a cocktail napkin.
 
Not just that Gwynn went in on his first try, but made it with like 97% of the vote. Yes, he's likely better than Raines, but the voters get all googly-eyed when it comes to big flashy stats.
 
Some of the writers don't even try to hide the fact that they base their votes on whether or not they liked a guy. One voter this year said that he didn't vote for Pedro Martinez because he always thought Pedro was "a punk". Another writer from Cleveland said he refused to vote for Martinez because he always beat the Indians when he pitched against them. These are not credible reasons for denying a vote for the HOF. Voters like that should have thier voting privileges revoked.
 
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