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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

On a plus side Shapiro has sealed some pretty good deals for his players:

Carrasco: 4 yrs/$22M (15-18) & 19-20 team option
Kluber: 5 yrs/$38.5M (15-19) & 20-21 team option
Brantley: 4 yrs/$25M (14-17) & 18 team option
Kipnis: 6 yrs/$52.5M (14-19) & 20 team option
Gomes: 6 yrs/$23M (14-19) & 20-21 team option

Some pretty good value deals.
 
Kipnis is not "close to All Star Talent", he was the best 2B in baseball by a wide margin this past year. Lindor is likely the ROY or runner up. There's a tonne of talent in Cleveland, they need 1-2 big bats and they are likely better than the Royals. Unfortunately, no $. They develop pitchers extremely well, and identify potential studs when they need to trade their big money players. **** Rogers, but I'm curious to see if we actually develop pitchers with a new regime, because we've been awful at it for years.

Certainly wasn't trying to demean Jason Kipnis, he's one of my favourite players in baseball, he has made 2 all-star teams so fine, he's an all-star level talent. And one would have to assume Correa's got the ROY locked-up but as I said, Lindor is going to be a great one.
 
Anthopoulos only said it wasn't the right "fit," leaving much to the imagination. But the reality is, he didn't feel he'd be able to work comfortably with Shapiro, according to people familiar with the situation.

There's been a suggestion Anthopulos envisioned a much more hands-on approach for Shapiro than outgoing president Paul Beeston and wasn't comfortable with an extra layer above him. But while there may be something to that, that doesn't really sound like the crux of the issue.

...

No, this was about the match. The pair is said to have had only a couple big meetings and a few more phone calls while Shapiro was finishing out his stay in Cleveland and giving Beeston his space. But word is, while Shapiro thought the confabs went well, Anthopoulos saw them negatively. While Shapiro thought he was being effusive in his praise, Anthopoulos heard only criticisms.

Shapiro apparently thought he was providing sufficient support. But after working 24-hour days for months, Anthopoulos, undoubtedly fried, probably needed some pats on the back. A friend of his outside the organization suggested he felt was being constantly told he's no good.

Shapiro, a brilliant man who normally chooses his words precisely, at one point was said to have discussed the lack of top prospects at the upper levels and the need to replenish the coffers following the big, season-altering trades, and Anthopoulos apparently took that as a slap. Shapiro and Anthopoulos both declined to talk for this article, but one other person familiar with the situation said he understood why Anthopoulos felt the way he did; that person said he believed Shapiro wasn't especially complimentary, especially considering the wonderful run the Blue Jays were on.

Perhaps Shapiro thought he was being pro-active in discussing the issues the club faced going forward. However, his remarks were received as unnecessary criticism. Another person with Blue Jays connections suggested that the erudite, Princeton-educated Shapiro, perhaps unintentionally, came off as smug, especially considering the Indians have had very solid, though not always spectacular, results in a very small market, and a less-than-stellar overall farm record (they made their hay with some very good trades). One other Jays person remarked, regarding Shapiro, "I didn't see his rings. Maybe they didn't get past the border."

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer...ty-call-was-over-personality-clash-more-notes


Guys, let's not judge Shapiro yet. He only made AA feel shitty enough to walk away from $10 million+ while he was leading the team to 2 games from the World Series. **** him.
 
anyone think Papelbon could be back out on the market? Would you take him? or is his character a question. I think that Harper thing exposed alot that Harper is a primadonna.

No, don't want him.

Papelbon is the ******* here, not harper.
 
Boohoo he hurt AA's feelings. AA in turn took his ball and ran home. Shitty enough to walk away from 10 million, cmon.

This is so childish. AA was on the brink of being canned. Rogers made a move to secure a well known and respected baseball man. They should have waited for the season to finish before making such a move. This would've given them a better idea of where the team is and assess whether or not AA is worth resigning. They butchered the Beeston situation and they look like boobs for it. AA not wanting to be #2 is no surprise as i feel he showed his value as a #1 decision maker this season. Would i like to have AA? yes. Am i devastated that he isn't here? no.

Mark Shapiro is fine. He has his work cut out for him to mend the butthurt fans have from AA's departure but i think he'll be fine. Shapiro is now walking into a tough situation because if the team struggles the fan backlash will be ruthless. If the team does well it'll be because its AA's blueprint.

Lets give the guy a chance. He has roughly 30-40 million(if Revere gets moved) to improve the roster. We still have the best offsense in baseball and some flexibility to improve our rotation.

The sky is not falling.
 
If Shapiro was so smart he would have found a way to make it work with the Executive of the Year, and not made him completely unwilling to accept a brinks truck of money backed up to his front porch, to just keep doing what he was doing, at a time when the Jays are so close to winning. Its such a ridiculous situation.
 
Is AA a grown ass man or not? Seems like he's just upset he has to be accountable to an actual baseball guy with an opinion instead of checking with Grampa Simpson when he makes a deal. Jesus. 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. Complete inability to put together a pitching staff for 4/5 of them. Trading our best pitching prospect in years for 39 yr old knuckleballer. Maybe he needs another guy to bounce ideas off.
 
Why is Mark Shapiro fine? You've still never answered that.

He's been the head baseball guy for a club in maybe the worst division in baseball over the last 15 years and barely moved the ****ing needle when it comes to competing. Why is he "fine"?
 
Is AA a grown ass man or not? Seems like he's just upset he has to be accountable to an actual baseball guy with an opinion instead of checking with Grampa Simpson when he makes a deal. Jesus. 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. Complete inability to put together a pitching staff for 4/5 of them. Trading our best pitching prospect in years for 39 yr old knuckleballer. Maybe he needs another guy to bounce ideas off.
+1 although I would add that somehow after 5 seasons his team wins and we are going into the off season with 1 and a half starters. AA was good but no genius people make him out to be. He never was.
 
Why is Mark Shapiro fine? You've still never answered that.

He's been the head baseball guy for a club in maybe the worst division in baseball over the last 15 years and barely moved the ****ing needle when it comes to competing. Why is he "fine"?

I'm irritated that Rogers ****ed this up enough that the two of them couldn't work together. I feel like Shipiro strengths and AA's could have worked well together on the baseball side.
 
Is AA a grown ass man or not? Seems like he's just upset he has to be accountable to an actual baseball guy with an opinion instead of checking with Grampa Simpson when he makes a deal. Jesus. 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. Complete inability to put together a pitching staff for 4/5 of them. Trading our best pitching prospect in years for 39 yr old knuckleballer. Maybe he needs another guy to bounce ideas off.

If Shapiro had a better track record than AA, I'd maybe agree with some of this. If we were bringing in an exec with a track record of winning, and AA didn't want to play nice...yeah, I'd kind of buy some of this. But we didn't. Rogers brings in Shapiro, who it appears in conversations with AA, to have been more concerned about topping up the farm system than in making plans on how to actually win something, to the point where AA felt he was being shit on.

No, AA doesn't have some flawless track record that puts him beyond reproach, but he has a better track record as a GM, in a far more challenging division, than Mark Shapiro.
 
I'm irritated that Rogers ****ed this up enough that the two of them couldn't work together. I feel like Shipiro strengths and AA's could have worked well together on the baseball side.

This should have been done last year in the winter, or this year in the winter. Ted's ridiculous boy has shown absolutely zero ability at performing any function within the executive end of this club.
 
Is AA a grown ass man or not? Seems like he's just upset he has to be accountable to an actual baseball guy with an opinion instead of checking with Grampa Simpson when he makes a deal. Jesus. 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. Complete inability to put together a pitching staff for 4/5 of them. Trading our best pitching prospect in years for 39 yr old knuckleballer. Maybe he needs another guy to bounce ideas off.

Woooo where have you been all my life?!?

AA clearly didn't want to work with Shapiro. Nothing wrong with that. If i don't like the person i'm working for there is a chance i decide to not make it work and i take my talents elsewhere.

I can't wait for the backtracking when AA accepts a job next week with a team. All of a sudden it'll be that he jumped ship to a better market or more autonomy or he had this all along as his destination and was using Rogers as a bargaining tool..
 
Is AA a grown ass man or not? Seems like he's just upset he has to be accountable to an actual baseball guy with an opinion instead of checking with Grampa Simpson when he makes a deal. Jesus. 1 playoff appearance in 5 years. Complete inability to put together a pitching staff for 4/5 of them. Trading our best pitching prospect in years for 39 yr old knuckleballer. Maybe he needs another guy to bounce ideas off.

But reportedly its not about accountability though. Its on Shapiro. Shaprio made AA feel like he couldn't work with him. Its on the President and CEO to make it work with the executive of the year. He was the new guy coming into an organization having success. Its insane to completely absolve him of any blame in this situation. He's the reason AA is gone. Not a good start for Shapiro here.
 
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If Shapiro had a better track record than AA, I'd maybe agree with some of this. If we were bringing in an exec with a track record of winning, and AA didn't want to play nice...yeah, I'd kind of buy some of this. But we didn't. Rogers brings in Shapiro, who it appears in conversations with AA, to have been more concerned about topping up the farm system than in making plans on how to actually win something, to the point where AA felt he was being shit on.

No, AA doesn't have some flawless track record that puts him beyond reproach, but he has a better track record as a GM, in a far more challenging division, than Mark Shapiro.

Cleveland had ~60% of the Jays payroll over the past few years and won roughly the same amount of games and playoff appearances. Not saying it makes him better, but it sure doesn't make him worse.
 
All the talk of Shapiro wanting to top up the farm system over winning is speculative and most likely just Rogers hating media writing shit.

Cleveland has quite the talented team despite having one of the lowest payrolls. Also keep in mind that if they have one of the lowest payrolls in baseball they likely also have one of the lowest front office payrolls as well. Less money in management means they spend less money on player scouting, development and the like. Why can't we use this to our advantage where we use Shapiros alleged strengths to help this team? Just because he was mandated to keep payroll across the board low in Cleveland doesn't mean it to be the case here.

Here he will have a top 10 payroll. I don't know what the scouting and development budget is but i'd figure its along the lines of top 10 as well considering where payroll projections are. If he boots Gibbons i'll be even happier.
 
One thing i will say for Shapiro, he seems to really like his starters, and relievers to miss bats.

Salazar, Bauer, Carrasco, Kluber, Allen all have excellent K rates.

I'm going to assume he is less than thrilled with Aaron Sanchez as a SP.

A good FA SP to project for him to target would be one with a great K-Rate it seems.
 
Cleveland had ~60% of the Jays payroll over the past few years and won roughly the same amount of games and playoff appearances. Not saying it makes him better, but it sure doesn't make him worse.

Come on are you going to honestly try and argue that there is no difference between the Jays and Indians right now? The Jays played like a 100 win team this year. They expected win percentage over the last two seasons is the best in baseball (.579 - Cleveland is 12th). Zeke posted numbers showing this was statistically one of the best offences of all time this year. And they played most of the year without Stroman, Travis and Price. This Jays team is insane. And it only took AA 5 years to get here not 15. Its a downgrade.
 
Cleveland had ~60% of the Jays payroll over the past few years and won roughly the same amount of games and playoff appearances. Not saying it makes him better, but it sure doesn't make him worse.

The payroll disparity has really only been large over the last 2 seasons. Of course, we're comparing a team in a division where there are two top 5 teams for spending pretty much every year vs a division where everyone not named Detroit typically sits in the bottom 10.

That's what I don't think the "Shapiro has had to work with so much less" crowd gets. As little as he's had to work with, he's competing with teams in the AL Central that spend as little money as possible every year.
 
One thing i will say for Shapiro, he seems to really like his starters, and relievers to miss bats.

Salazar, Bauer, Carrasco, Kluber, Allen all have excellent K rates.

I'm going to assume he is less than thrilled with Aaron Sanchez as a SP.

A good FA SP to project for him to target would be one with a great K-Rate it seems.

Does Sanchez and Revere net us something good? Tyson Ross? Gio Gonzalez?

As an FA SP Ian Kennedy and Mike Fiers have the k rates that might not be the highest paid.
 
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