The Fantastically Beautiful Joyously Superfun 22-23 Season Celebration Thread
- Thread starter zeke
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Wayward DP
Well-known member
yeah but look at their careers, and how many injuries/conkies they each suffered and returned from before calling it quits. don't think Murray is anywhere near that level.
the common theme is they all basically kept trying to come back from injury over and over again before finally accepting that their brains could not handle it. I don't think Murray is at that level yet
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Murray went from being a .920 stud and playoff dick whipper outer to being a .900 shell of his former self by 25 yrs old, with conky/head/neck injuries being the most common injury type he's had in his career (his first reported NHL concussion was 2018). I don't think his case is remotely close to the best case scenario guys mentioned.
If we go down his injury history
- 3 confirmed concussions (at least 2 in the last 18 months)
- 1 "head" injury
- 1 "neck" injury
- 3 "upper body" injuries from back in the day when they didn't have to tell use shit
- Kariya apparently had 6 conkies and to this day has memory loss issues
- Lafontaine had 6
- Savard had 5-6 by his own account in the player's tribune
- Lindros had "atleast 8"
I'm going to go ahead and say that this is at least 4-5 for Murray now.
This is from 2018 and we know he's had 2 confirmed concussions, a neck and a head injury since then
Matt-alytics: Matt Murray Injury Numbers are Staggering
Murray has some history to overcome as he prepares for what would be his third Stanley Cup playoff run.
pittsburghhockeynow.com
Murray has a head injury record similar to everyone I noted other than maybe Lindros.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
the simplest explanation is not always the correct one.Murray went from being a .920 stud and playoff dick whipper outer to being a .900 shell of his former self by 25 yrs old, with conky/head/neck injuries being the most common injury type he's had in his career (his first reported NHL concussion was 2018). I don't think his case is remotely close to the best case scenario guys mentioned.
If we go down his injury history
- 3 confirmed concussions (at least 2 in the last 18 months)
- 1 "head" injury
- 1 "neck" injury
- 3 "upper body" injuries from back in the day when they didn't have to tell use shit
- Kariya apparently had 6 conkies and to this day has memory loss issues
- Lafontaine had 6
- Savard had 5-6 by his own account in the player's tribune
- Lindros had "atleast 8"
I'm going to go ahead and say that this is at least 4-5 for Murray now.
This is from 2018 and we know he's had 2 confirmed concussions, a neck and a head injury since then
Matt-alytics: Matt Murray Injury Numbers are Staggering
Murray has some history to overcome as he prepares for what would be his third Stanley Cup playoff run.
Murray has a head injury record similar to everyone I noted other than maybe Lindros.
Injury History
diving a bit deeper reveals...
2015/16, PIT: 13 GP, .930 (no injuries) PLAYOFFS - 21GP, .923
2016/17, PIT: 49 GP, .923 (no injuries) PLAYOFFS - 11GP, .937
2017/18, PIT: 49 GP, .907 ('lower body' injury November 28, 2017, 'upper body' injury Dec 28, 2017, concussion Feb 26, 2018) PLAYOFFS - 12GP, .908
2018/19, PIT: 50 GP, .919 ('lower body' injury Nov 22, 2018, 'upper body' injury Feb 7, 2019) PLAYOFFS - 4GP, .906
2019/20, PIT: 38 GP, .899 (no injuries listed) PLAYOFFS - 3GP, .914
2020/21, OTT: 27 GP, .893 ('upper body' injury Feb 13, 2021; 'lower body' injury April 26, 2021)
2021/22, OTT: 20 GP, .906 ('illness' Oct 15, 2021; 'head' injury Oct 23, 2021, covid Nov 11, 2021, undisclosed Feb 15, 2022, neck injury Mar 10, 2022)
then this season, where he's down to a .903 and has had an adductor injury in November, an ankle injury in January, and his current conky.
so I see only one actual diagnosed concussion, with three mystery 'upper body' injuries, one 'head' injury, one 'neck' injury, and the most recent one unlisted. I'm willing to accept some of the upper body injuries were conkies but not really sure how we can verify what was what sitting here today.
also of interest is Murray's bounce back season in 2018/19 following a down year. and without knowing more about the actual injuries he suffered in 18/19, hard to make any firm conclusions. that was his last good year.
anyways, I'm willing to be convinced on this but the limited evidence we have at this point is not sufficient for me to reach the same conclusion you have, yet.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
I also think you're double counting the concussions against the 'head', 'neck' and 'upper body' injuries, assuming we were using the same source for injury history
axlsalinger
Well-known member
seems a little silly to be plotting out future years on LTIR/Witness Protection Program for a guy who is currently "day to day"
Wayward DP
Well-known member
agreed
leafman101
Well-known member
Sounds like he should never play again to me.
thehabhater
Some call me Tim
We all thought that before the opening faceoff
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I'm using a combination of sources, the Fox link among them and doing a bit of reading between the lines. We know this league is fucking brutal for actually admitting to concussions. The pens source I listed noted 2 concussions by 2018, we then "know" that he had one last year in Ottawa when Zaitsev ran into him, and likely had another one this season in Toronto.
I don't think claiming he's had 4-5 at minimum is wild at all.
JackBurton
Well-known member
I recall seeing Murray without his equipment on as a rookie in 2016 playoffs and shocked at how rail-thin he looked.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
again, I'm willing to accept that he's had 4-5 concussions. but it's tough to deduce with certainty when each occurred, and it's hardly a clear line from conkies ---> suckitude
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
You're way overthinking this mang.
It's not that hard to deduce when at least 3 of his conkies occurred at all. Incredibly easy, regardless of what the official NHL verbiage is.
and there is definitely a clear line between conkies and cognitive difficulties, including motor skills. Crystal clear. Worse when they're repetitive.
REPEATED CONCUSSIONS IMPAIR BEHAVIORAL AND NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE MOTOR LEARNING SYSTEM
Concussions affect nearly 3 million people a year and are the leading cause of traumatic brain injury-related emergency department visits among youth. Evidence shows neuromotor regions are sensitive to concussive events and that motor symptoms may be ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Results
We found that athletes in both the acute- and chronic-state of injury following a concussion had impaired retention and aberrant occlusion in motor skill learning as compared to athletes with no history of concussion. Moreover, higher numbers of previous concussions (regardless of the time since injury) correlated with more severe behavioral and neurophysiological motor impairments by specifically hindering neurophysiological mechanisms of learning to affect behavior.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
you're way underthinking this.You're way overthinking this mang.
It's not that hard to deduce when at least 3 of his conkies occurred at all. Incredibly easy, regardless of what the official NHL verbiage is.
and there is definitely a clear line between conkies and cognitive difficulties, including motor skills. Crystal clear. Worse when they're repetitive.
REPEATED CONCUSSIONS IMPAIR BEHAVIORAL AND NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES IN THE MOTOR LEARNING SYSTEM
Concussions affect nearly 3 million people a year and are the leading cause of traumatic brain injury-related emergency department visits among youth. Evidence shows neuromotor regions are sensitive to concussive events and that motor symptoms may be ...Results
We found that athletes in both the acute- and chronic-state of injury following a concussion had impaired retention and aberrant occlusion in motor skill learning as compared to athletes with no history of concussion. Moreover, higher numbers of previous concussions (regardless of the time since injury) correlated with more severe behavioral and neurophysiological motor impairments by specifically hindering neurophysiological mechanisms of learning to affect behavior.
recent (admittedly somewhat limited) sample results undercut your hypothesis here.
he has had periods of strong play in each of the past two seasons. the only reason his numbers are what they are is due to the even smaller sample stretches where he's been returning from injury / playing through it and sucking.
listen, I was a big Murray hater in the offseason and I'm far from his biggest fan, but it's a helluva stretch to declare his career effectively over cause he smacked his head on the ice again.
and his performance this season alone undercuts your hypothesis. he started real fucking well, suffered two different, non-concussion injuries, and then struggled returning from each.
does your hypothesis apply equally to all NHLers with 3 documented conkies? gonna be a pretty humongous list if so...
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
like, 3 weeks.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
the idea that Murray is forever doomed as an NHL goalie due to cognitive decline just isn't borne out by recent results. If that was the case, what explains his heaters both this season and last season?
Wayward DP
Well-known member
also I'm annoyed to be defending Murray. was never a fan of the acquisition. just think it's premature to declare him dead after this head bang after holding out hope of a renaissance and revitalization prior to this season. and after he showed flashes of top level ability still.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
You mean like the last 4 years?
He has no other known chronic injuries other than "head/neck/concussion" injuries, of which we can be pretty fucking sure that his minimum is 4-5. We know the effects that those have on performance, and that most notable players who retire due to them tend to be in that ~6 range when they call it quits.
I don't want to get lost in the weeds here, the core of my point is pretty simple. If the Leafs are looking to LTIR him next season, there's probably brain injury related reasons to do so. How much of his decline is based on the excessive amount of head injuries he's had is besides my original point.
worm
Well-known member
Probably why Murray is not playing.