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Around The League - 2024-25 Regular Season

"Why invest" is not the same discussion. On a personal level, I don't give a fuck if the owners made a penny of profit on pro sports as long as the athletes made bank. I don't watch sports or pay tickets to line the owner's pockets.

It's a question of athlete rights and whether they should just "accept" what they're given because, well, they're athletes. The older crowd, with strong "shut up and dribble" vibes, have made themselves clear.

I totally understand why the owners are doing what they're doing with ELCs & RFA, and I don't blame them. They want to make money by having control of the athletes through collective agreement and indirectly, having controlled costs.

I also understand why players, who have minimal leverage, use that leverage to tell them to fuck off. Cutter Gauthier and Rutger McGroarty had one opportunity to tell the teams to eat shit. The second they signed their ELCs, they lose a firm grasp of that leverage. When all of the other players around them, a lot of which aren't nearly as good as them, are signing ELCs and getting to burn the first year of their contracts, and they're not? Yeah, I'd be pissed too.
 
It is the same discussion.

It’s about dividing the pie. And if the pie shrinks because we all know only 4 or 5 team have a shot at the championship for a second tier sport, then billionaires may look elsewhere to put their cash. Why not be part of an F1 consortium?
 
GGpX said:
You can tell who's old and who's young in this discussion.

Professional sports in North America are the only career where individuals are frowned upon for wanting to choose where to work when entering the work space. Macklin Celibrini should not be placed in a situation where he has to sign with San Jose or whichever team theoretically trades for his right or he'll be shunned from the NHL for four years.

The draft is used to handcuff players and give them less rights, and with the aid of the CBA, it reduces player compensation. It makes no sense that players on entry level deals make so little.

I have absolutely no issue with players like McGroarty saying he won't sign with the team that drafted him.
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Or they can work at Costco for $19 an hour if they dont like an ELC contract
 
GGpX said:
The most popular sport in the world is football. Not American football, but European football. Watch European football and tell me how good the parity there is when the six same clubs run Europe. And people keep watching. And attending games. And paying for jerseys. And tons of sponsors want to be associated with those leagues & teams. Tell me how, exactly, the parity - or lack thereof - has hurt European football.

Or, if you want something closer to home, the same 5-6 baseball teams (Yankees, Dodgers, etc.) spend more than the rest to build their contending teams, while teams like the Pirates and the Rays struggle to pay half of what those other teams do. While the MLB's somewhat stagnated, it's not dying any time soon. It's not a coincidence that the biggest monetary contracts in North America are for baseball players. It's going to be a while before we see a 10 year, $700M fully guaranteed contract in football.

Salary caps, ELCs, restricted free agency, etc. were not created to make the sport "fair". Fair is a word in a world where pigs fly. There's no such thing as fair. The owners in hockey are shortsighted idiots for the most part, but as conservative business men who are more preoccupied with not losing money (instead potentially making money), they do as Bettman wants. Their real intentions with all those things is simple: Keeping costs down.

In American football, Caleb Williams was taken first overall and his contract is $39.5M fully guaranteed over 4 years. In comparison, Macklin Celebrini's contract is $950k / year with the possibility of getting $3.5M in bonuses per season, assuming he reaches those bonuses, for three years. While the financials in American football and hockey are significantly different, football doesn't make 11 to 39 times more money annually than hockey does. So why does the first overall pick in hockey make (if all bonuses are reached) 30-35% annually what the first pick in football makes? Trust me, it's not to make the NHL "fair", I'll tell you right now.

By the way, ELCs don't guarantee them a million bucks. The vast majority of players that sign their ELCs never play in the NHL and they'll be making their AHL salary of $80k annually.

The argument that they're playing a game and getting compensated for it, then implying they should be thankful, holds no weight for me. I'd rather see the players get paid than the owners.
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This ain’t Europe. Thankfully. People here won’t watch. Most bigger North American cities have multiple pro sports teams who have to compete for the sports dollar. Europe still basically has only one sport that the masses care about. Not the case here.
 
GGpX said:
With all that said, sports are better for us, the consumers, when athletes have less rights. The NHL would be infinitely better overnight if teams could cut the Anderson, Gallagher, Darnell Nurse, etc. types and relieve themselves of those huge caphits with minimal penalty.

American football is king in North America because the system is created to crush the players. Careers are short, there are always new players ready to step in for league minimum, so a player can't afford to hold out. When a player has any kind of leverage, he's going to use it. But that applies to a very small percentage of players in the NFL.

So, if a player has an opportunity to gain leverage and tell the team to fuck off, I have no problem with it. It sucks for the fans of the team he's on, sure, but he's well within his right.
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Maybe start with not handing out fucken stupid contracts in the first place
 
GGpX said:
"Why invest" is not the same discussion. On a personal level, I don't give a fuck if the owners made a penny of profit on pro sports as long as the athletes made bank. I don't watch sports or pay tickets to line the owner's pockets.

It's a question of athlete rights and whether they should just "accept" what they're given because, well, they're athletes. The older crowd, with strong "shut up and dribble" vibes, have made themselves clear.

I totally understand why the owners are doing what they're doing with ELCs & RFA, and I don't blame them. They want to make money by having control of the athletes through collective agreement and indirectly, having controlled costs.

I also understand why players, who have minimal leverage, use that leverage to tell them to fuck off. Cutter Gauthier and Rutger McGroarty had one opportunity to tell the teams to eat shit. The second they signed their ELCs, they lose a firm grasp of that leverage. When all of the other players around them, a lot of which aren't nearly as good as them, are signing ELCs and getting to burn the first year of their contracts, and they're not? Yeah, I'd be pissed too.
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It’s not the “older crowd,” it’s the understand how business works crowd. Why do you think all these leagues want every team to be in the “playoff hunt” as long as possible? Creates a bigger pie. Which also results in more money for ALL players.
 
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legoalie said:
The kid hasn't played a NHL game.. I have no problem with asking for a trade once you play at the NHL level... so you would be ok with all the hab draft picks this year that haven't played a NHL game demand a trade..
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would be our fault for taking a guy who doesn't want to play for us
 
lecoqsportif said:
That said, if Philly (popular US destination?) and Winnipeg had allowed these kids to burn a contract year as is the practice for elite NCAA prospects, would we be having this discussion?
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Yup, both teams were dumb, especially Winnipeg. Nobody not already there wants to go play there.
 
GGpX said:
With all that said, sports are better for us, the consumers, when athletes have less rights. The NHL would be infinitely better overnight if teams could cut the Anderson, Gallagher, Darnell Nurse, etc. types and relieve themselves of those huge caphits with minimal penalty.

American football is king in North America because the system is created to crush the players. Careers are short, there are always new players ready to step in for league minimum, so a player can't afford to hold out. When a player has any kind of leverage, he's going to use it. But that applies to a very small percentage of players in the NFL.

So, if a player has an opportunity to gain leverage and tell the team to fuck off, I have no problem with it. It sucks for the fans of the team he's on, sure, but he's well within his right.
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All pro sports were better for the fans back in the days when players were slaves because unless you yourself were a player, or were dependent on a player's salary for your own livelihood, you didn't care if Gordie Howe made $100K or $10K. All you knew is that the game was better when player's made no money and had no rights to move.

The reason NFL football rules this continent is because players have fewer freedoms than in any other sport. The fact that the rest of the world watches their 2nd rate local soccer teams is irrelevant to North America. In Europe and South America watching the local soccer team is just what people do and have done for over a hundred years. They don't know what else to do. But in North America we don't root for "Montreal" or "Brooklyn", we root for (or rooted for) the Expos and Dodgers. But then the Dodgers moved to LA and the Expos moved to DC.

Pro sports fandom in North America is a transactional thing and franchises come and go at the whim of the owners. That's not how it works in European soccer. The closest thing to the Premiership on this continent is MLB, which was eclipsed in popularity by the NFL 45 years ago because it's never been as reliable for fans. Even NFL teams have relocated but for the most part a team can draft players and keep them in a way that MLB and the NBA can't. That's why the NFL is king.
 
WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
All pro sports were better for the fans back in the days when players were slaves because unless you yourself were a player, or were dependent on a player's salary for your own livelihood, you didn't care if Gordie Howe made $100K or $10K. All you knew is that the game was better when player's made no money and had no rights to move.

The reason NFL football rules this continent is because players have fewer freedoms than in any other sport. The fact that the rest of the world watches their 2nd rate local soccer teams is irrelevant to North America. In Europe and South America watching the local soccer team is just what people do and have done for over a hundred years. They don't know what else to do. But in North America we don't root for "Montreal" or "Brooklyn", we root for (or rooted for) the Expos and Dodgers. But then the Dodgers moved to LA and the Expos moved to DC.

Pro sports fandom in North America is a transactional thing and franchises come and go at the whim of the owners. That's not how it works in European soccer. The closest thing to the Premiership on this continent is MLB, which was eclipsed in popularity by the NFL 45 years ago because it's never been as reliable for fans. Even NFL teams have relocated but for the most part a team can draft players and keep them in a way that MLB and the NBA can't. That's why the NFL is king.
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NHL is very difficult to navigate with a hard cap and limited flexibility when your capped out .

The NFL is king because every team is on the same playing field

Teams split evenly a shit of TV revenue , and they make a profit before a beer is sold or an ass is in the seat

Teams have complete flexibility when contracts are not fully guaranteed and with a draft that produces instant starters

Plenty of ways to work around the cap , NHL simply is not in the same league with 1/5 the revenue base
 
GEEMAN said:
NHL is very difficult to navigate with a hard cap and limited flexibility when your capped out .

The NFL is king because every team is on the same playing field

Teams split evenly a shit of TV revenue , and they make a profit before a beer is sold or an ass is in the seat

Teams have complete flexibility when contracts are not fully guaranteed and with a draft that produces instant starters

Plenty of ways to work around the cap , NHL simply is not in the same league with 1/5 the revenue base
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The thing that keeps the NFL on top is that the size of your market has zero to do with your ability to acquire and keep top-tier talent. Some teams are failures because the people running them are either incompetent (Cleveland) or delusional (Dallas) but no fanbase is ever eliminated from playoff contention by Labor Day simply because it can't get or keep good players. In the NBA and MLB, certain teams are fucked from the get-go just because of where they are or how much they can afford to spend relative to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Astros, and Dodgers.

For instance, why would anyone waste their time rooting for the Pirates? Their owner is a cheapskate and their roster is uncompetitive. No star players are ever going there. But the Steelers have no such problems despite being in the same market and even the Penguins are able to remain competitive enough to keep fans coming in a market where they don't come unless you're good. But the NBA? They won't even bother with the Pittsburgh's or Buffalo's anymore because star players don't want to live there. Their star players have way too much control, which makes certain markets a waste of time. Vancouver's NBA experiment was over the first time a player agent told the team not to draft his player because it would violate the terms of the player's endorsement deal with Nike. If you give NHL players that kind of leverage You may as well tell the Oilers, Flames, Jets, and Sens to fold right now, and fans of Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver had better be happy with never winning because the only teams that will be hoisting the Cup will be teams from tax exempt states.
 
WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
The thing that keeps the NFL on top is that the size of your market has zero to do with your ability to acquire and keep top-tier talent. Some teams are failures because the people running them are either incompetent (Cleveland) or delusional (Dallas) but no fanbase is ever eliminated from playoff contention by Labor Day simply because it can't get or keep good players. In the NBA and MLB, certain teams are fucked from the get-go just because of where they are or how much they can afford to spend relative to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Astros, and Dodgers.

For instance, why would anyone waste their time rooting for the Pirates? Their owner is a cheapskate and their roster is uncompetitive. No star players are ever going there. But the Steelers have no such problems despite being in the same market and even the Penguins are able to remain competitive enough to keep fans coming in a market where they don't come unless you're good. But the NBA? They won't even bother with the Pittsburgh's or Buffalo's anymore because star players don't want to live there. Their star players have way too much control, which makes certain markets a waste of time. Vancouver's NBA experiment was over the first time a player agent told the team not to draft his player because it would violate the terms of the player's endorsement deal with Nike. If you give NHL players that kind of leverage You may as well tell the Oilers, Flames, Jets, and Sens to fold right now, and fans of Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver had better be happy with never winning because the only teams that will be hoisting the Cup will be teams from tax exempt states.
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I see your point but you cant have tons of players just going to a few teams in the NHL

You can give NHL players more leverage but a hard cap at 85-90 can only go so far

The bottom 10 teams will still survive cause 230 players have nowhere to fucken go unless Europe at 250k is better for them

Also MLB weaker teams can keep their players , they just cant give Shoei 700 fucken mil

MLB owners have their players by the nuts for 6 full years with arbitration , there is no excuse for Pittsburgh to lose Skenes

KC has been a shit show for a decade but Witt JR inked 250+ mil to stay for a near decade

NFL is a complete different beast very flexible and fair for both teams and players

Players simply chase the fucken guaranteed money that every team can offer because they can punt out players out the door tomorrow morning
 
GEEMAN said:
I see your point but you cant have tons of players just going to a few teams in the NHL

You can give NHL players more leverage but a hard cap at 85-90 can only go so far

The bottom 10 teams will still survive cause 230 players have nowhere to fucken go unless Europe at 250k is better for them

Also MLB weaker teams can keep their players , they just cant give Shoei 700 fucken mil

MLB owners have their players by the nuts for 6 full years with arbitration , there is no excuse for Pittsburgh to lose Skenes

KC has been a shit show for a decade but Witt JR inked 250+ mil to stay for a near decade

NFL is a complete different beast very flexible and fair for both teams and players

Players simply chase the fucken guaranteed money that every team can offer because they can punt out players out the door tomorrow morning
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Why not it’s been happening in MLB for nearly 30-years and they keep breaking league attendance records

Mets & NYY are 5X Oaklands team payroll ($300M+ vs $62M) …all but 4-teams will top 1.7M attendance and 2/3 will top 2M

So fans are still going in droves despite their team being out of it on opening day
 
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Sal_Butera said:
Why not it’s been happening in MLB for nearly 30-years and they keep breaking league attendance records

Mets & NYY are 5X Oaklands team payroll ($300M+ vs $62M) …all but 4-teams will top 1.7M attendance and 2/3 will top 2M

So fans are still going in droves despite their team being out of it on opening day
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My point was teams will still exist , most players have nowhere to go and attrition isnt happening
 
Sal_Butera said:
The entire middle class has been wiped out in MLB
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The entire middle class in and out of pro sports is being wiped out because those at the top don't pay taxes and the poor can only pay so much. The only class of people with a bit of money to squeeze and little to no power to stop it from happening are the middle class.
 
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