leafman101
Well-known member
I'd make that trade if I was Calgary.
GDT #30: DEC 4, 7:00 - Time for the Mucho Man to go Savage
- Thread starter zeke
- Start date
hockeylover
Well-known member
I don’t get it either.
LeafGm
Well-known member
I would too. Tkachuk's a stud, but I don't think he's as good as Marner (at least, the Marner from the past three seasons).
The point was moreso that if Calgary was looking to trade anyone to shake things up, Tkachuk's probably the last guy they'd move. Which makes a plan centered around trading for him as a grand solution to the Leafs' problems seem pretty silly.
leafman101
Well-known member
I don't know if "tougher" is the right word. IMO they don't need to be more physical, but I do think replacing Ceci/Barrie with a couple of dman that are stronger in puck and position battles while still having skill would make the team a lot better. They are just too soft in coverage defensively. But while a guys Hainsey and Zaitsev were more competitive, they had no puck skills.
They need players that are the combination of Hainsey's competitiveness and Barrie's puck skills. Which might just be Sandin and Lilly.
They need players that are the combination of Hainsey's competitiveness and Barrie's puck skills. Which might just be Sandin and Lilly.
Preston
MBow30 alt account
Yeah, it's more about winning puck battles and breaking up cycles. I know it happens, but they get pinned in their zone for far too long, often expanding several shifts. They then get tired and miss assignments defensively (which probably has a lot more to do with fatigue from chasing the puck around all shift than being actually braindead or poor defensively). They're great with the puck, but they could be better without it. There is certainly something to be said about being able to get the puck BACK. And they have issues with that. I'd say that's the only thing they have issues with really. They'll score again. That hasn't gone away. They're still skilled. But seeing Barrie, Rielly, Ceci, or even their centers trying to win possession back or trying to win those 50-50 battles.. It's not great.
Obviously has nothing to do with throwing hits or fighting like some believe.. But they do have some shortfalls in terms of what I refer to as "toughness" in the current NHL.
leafman101
Well-known member
True, but I believe that is simply a short term dumber down D to try and quickly cover for the weaknesses, but not their ideal system of defending. Dubas has said over and over they want to pressure the puck carrier in all 3 zones and put the emphasis on getting it back,
And I wouldn't be in too big of a rush to make changes if we didn't have two high end, young dmen in the AHL that play exactly that way.
And I wouldn't be in too big of a rush to make changes if we didn't have two high end, young dmen in the AHL that play exactly that way.
Preston
MBow30 alt account
The good thing is, from what I've seen in the AHL Liljegren is a unit and wins those battles at a high level. It may not translate immediately in The Show but help is definitely coming. I think Sandin will eventually get there too (I still see future Ryan Suter with him), although he's not quite Liljegren level in that regard yet IMO. Muzzin is their best right now but even with him, he's a possession driver mainly, not necessarily much of a suppressor. His defense is good but it's not his strong suit. And they're probably losing him next year. They'll need some help and I'm sure Dubas knows this. He's not a dummy.
Not to mention, Kerfoot, Matthews and Tavares don't really help in that regard.
Not to mention, Kerfoot, Matthews and Tavares don't really help in that regard.
leaffan2005
Well-known member
That's because you are misinterpreting what "tougher" means. It doesn't mean getting guys who throw crazy body checks and pound on people.
Our top players are pussies. Let's just call it what it is. They shy away from contact, they float around trying to get the puck but they do not regularly win puck battles along the boards.
"Tough" also refers to mental toughness. Responding well after a goal, rallying back to tie a game, not getting down after mistakes, etc. They haven't shown the ability to do any of these things. Adversity doesn't spark greater and better performances. They are just not built that way. You can get away with having 1 or 2 guys like this but when you have a team littered with this kind of persona you are in trouble. They are also quite stupid in general. Boneheaded mistakes are the regular culprit for our losses (i.e. Matthews in the Buffalo game, Spezza more recently). They don't think the game well and are way too passive on the puck.
We need to shake up the core of this team, bottom line. You can critique certain trade ideas all you want but shuffling 4th line guys in and out and mixing up the bottom pair defenders isn't going to make a meaningful difference. Guys like Nylander, Marner, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc. need to be moved for returns that address the shortcomings I just mentioned. Otherwise we continue to toil in mediocrity.
Preston
MBow30 alt account
Nah. If you're core consists of:
A 7 million dollar player getting 60+ points per year
A 11.6 million dollar player being PPG and scoring 35-40 goals per year
A 10.9 million dollar player being PPG
An 11 million dollar player being PPG (although I do have fears of him declining early)
That is great great production any way you slice it.
The problem right now is that they have a lot of catching up to do. They've been about league average, maybe a bit better, since the Keefe hire. Hell, they've been well above league average when their starting goalie has played (100% of the blame goes to Dubas for that one). But just above league average obviously isn't good enough the rest of the way. So how do you improve moving forward? Build around the talent with things that the talent may lack. Tyson Barrie was not ideal. I think Dubas knew this when he targeted Brodie before Barrie. He knew this when he targeted and traded for Muzzin. Ceci sucks balls. Kerfoot, also not ideal. The reality is, even with their weaknesses I still think they're a just above league average team at worst.
The absolute worst thing any team could do is trade their elite talent. It doesn't work. It never has and never will.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
We can complain about everything along the margins all we want but the core of the problem with the season overall is really, really simple.
Freddy: .918 (104 point pace)
Hutch: .876 (14 point pace)
Kask: .842 (0 point pace)
Which gives our backups a .865sv% and a 12 point pace on the season. That's a hole you just don't climb out of and no, it's not the fault of league worst defence. This is a comfortably average defensive team overall. Not good, not bad, just average. We've received ECHL calibre goaltending in 7 games this season. With just average backup goaltending, we're around a 100 point pace. Which isn't good enough and isn't where we want to be. But it isn't this.
yeah, that's on the nerd, 100%.
Freddy: .918 (104 point pace)
Hutch: .876 (14 point pace)
Kask: .842 (0 point pace)
Which gives our backups a .865sv% and a 12 point pace on the season. That's a hole you just don't climb out of and no, it's not the fault of league worst defence. This is a comfortably average defensive team overall. Not good, not bad, just average. We've received ECHL calibre goaltending in 7 games this season. With just average backup goaltending, we're around a 100 point pace. Which isn't good enough and isn't where we want to be. But it isn't this.
yeah, that's on the nerd, 100%.
Preston
MBow30 alt account
Yeah, I get a lot of "I thought analytics was everything!!!" comments in my day to day life. And my response is.. Well, have you seen their analytics? They're not very good. And when you have borderline average analytics and a quarter of your games played with a literally unplayable backup goalie... You're not going to get results, full stop.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
The best is when people bitch about an analytics darling player on a single game sample where said player had bad analytics. But I thought he was good????!?!?!
Preston
MBow30 alt account
That kind of talk is going to build up, especially if they miss the playoffs. "Analytics aren't the answer!!! Fire Dubas!!! We need MOAR old school!!!!"
leafman101
Well-known member
Even if you do believe they are missing something lets not start trading star core pieces just because they aren't the perfect player.
When has that ever made a team better? Imagine if Boston still had Seguin and Hamilton despite their "softness".
When has that ever made a team better? Imagine if Boston still had Seguin and Hamilton despite their "softness".
Preston
MBow30 alt account
Literally never. If they can acquire elite for elite, then sure why not I guess. That's a sideways negligible move at the end of the day, but sure? But otherwise, nah. You'll never get equal value. I was a proponent of trading Marner just because of his salary but I'm flip flopping (partly because my annoyance with Marner and his dad has cooled down a bit.. And basing decisions on emotions like 2005 would is not how you run a team). It's dumb. You can explore it, discuss it with other teams, and if a team blows their brains out for him then sure. But that trade is more than likely not going to be available. It would almost 100% make the team worse.
leaffan2005
Well-known member
Yeah, Boston is very much missing those two right now. Weird how they improved after trading those guys for seemingly poor returns and those guys have gone on to do very little on their new teams in terms of regular season or playoff success.
Perfect example of two baby back bitches who were bringing the team down getting dealt. I would hope to get a similar response here by moving some of these allegedly "elite" players who have led a perennial underachieving team for three years now.
leaffan2005
Well-known member
You're right, let's move some 4th liners and bottom pair defenders out and hope for the best. That's a better idea.