GDT #8 - 2023/10/28 - TOR @ NSH 7pm - LoF Revenge Game

[Wayward DP]

Dude, it was never about who is better at faceoffs.

your previous posts on this topic do not align with this statement, at all.

Try to be a little smarter about this. You don't have to eat the bullshit zeke is feeding you.

zeke's posts on this have been logical and well researched and he's even done a whole bunch of extreme additional research to respond to your various counterpoints.

once he actually got into the weeds though, (and what was in the weeds clearly supported his position and not yours) you did a 180 in your position and refuse to discuss the weeds. now we're back only to the forest (or is it pond/weeds... forest usually goes with trees) from here on out? just trying to keep up...

in any event, it is indisputable that the Leafs results in overtime dramatically improved once Keefer started using Kampf to take the opening faceoff (sample size: this season and all of last).

 

[Wayward DP]

I was wrong to think that most of you had a functioning brain.

Hope you're fully satisfied now.

a woman was watching the news. there was a report of a driver on the freeway going the wrong direction. her husband takes that freeway home from work everyday, so she called him to warn him.

upon receiving the call from his wife, the man exclaims with incredulation, "honey, there's not just one car going the wrong direction, there's HUNDREDS of them"

 

[Preston]

My position is this: 3v3 has turned into a possession based form of hockey.

So if Matthews loses 4 out of 10 times (that is being generous), he would spend the next (I don't know) 30 to 60 seconds trying to get the puck back. And since there is a lot more room out on the ice, he is skating more than just on the PP. By the time he gets the puck back, he is tired and ready for a change so the second-best (or 3rd) offensive player is now taking his place to go into the offensive zone and try to score a goal.

Now if they use their 2nd best defensive player to start the game, he either gets the puck (Matthews now changes and gets on the ice in like 10 seconds) or uses all his energy to get the puck back so Matthews can use his Energy in the Offensive zone.

I know what scenario I would prefer to use to win the game.

Ooo I like the way you articulated this. I bet lof gets it now.

Edit: fuck nvm

 

[LeafOfFaith]

certainly is.



why do you keep repeating this 8gm sample as if it means something.



Actually in that case it's irrelevant who is on.



When he loses, the leafs do better than when the others lose, because he rarely gets stuck out there for long, and he's so far not allowing any goals while on and barely any chances at all.



no, 1-2-3 is not "basically 1-5".




I know. Faceoffs. Kampf sucks. Keefe sucks.



my "case" never rested on faceoffs. not even a little bit.

your "case" rested entirely on faceoffs - and you were proven wrong about them.

I keep referring to the 8 game sample as if it means something because I said "this year". And it does mean something. That's how he's doing on faceoffs this year - worst on the team.

Yes, 1-2-3 is basically 1-5. It's five out of six times that we didn't win in OT - where we either lost in OT or had to go to the shootout where what happens is irrelevant to the OT.

Everything else you've said is bullshit. We're 5-1-2 when Kampf is basically nonexistent in OT. That's just a fact you'll need to come to accept.

And your claim that my case was based purely on faceoff percentage is pure propaganda and you should be ashamed to have to resort to it. Because again, we already know there are other players better at taking the faceoff. The issue was always about what happened when we lose the faceoff.

 

[Wayward DP]

I don't understand what you're saying.

But yes, I prefer Matthews over Kampf. I prefer his ability to win more faceoffs and immediately start out with possession more frequently, his ability to defend as well as any other center I've ever seen play for the Leafs, his ability to take the puck away 2.5x more than Kampf (which is extremely valuable in the event the faceoff is lost), and if the game is still going at the end of his shift, to then bring on Tavares, Nylander, Marner, Bertuzzi, Knies, and almost anyone else other than Kampf.

Your position seems to start from the premise that we have no good players to put out there after Auston Matthews needs to go rest for a shift. That's not the case.

you don't seem to understand the idea that a fully rested Auston Matthews on an offensive zone shift is more likely to result in us scoring than a partially or inadequately Auston Matthews on an offensive zone shift.

or that a fully rested Auston Matthews on an offensive zone shift is preferable to any other fully rested centre we have on an offensive zone shift in overtime.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

your previous posts on this topic do not align with this statement, at all.

zeke's posts on this have been logical and well researched and he's even done a whole bunch of extreme additional research to respond to your various counterpoints.

once he actually got into the weeds though, (and what was in the weeds clearly supported his position and not yours) you did a 180 in your position and refuse to discuss the weeds. now we're back only to the forest (or is it pond/weeds... forest usually goes with trees) from here on out? just trying to keep up...

in any event, it is indisputable that the Leafs results in overtime dramatically improved once Keefer started using Kampf to take the opening faceoff (sample size: this season and all of last).

Just when I thought it couldn't get more stupid.

 

[Wayward DP]

Just when I thought it couldn't get more stupid.

you're literally just summarizing your thesis and repeating yourself at this point. and now lobbing insults apparently.

but again. over the past two seasons, the Leafs have a better OT record when Kampf starts than when he does not. this is simply indisputable.

also, do you think Kampf's FO% at the end of the year is likely to be closer to the current 8 game sample, or his previous 2 year sample?

 

[LeafOfFaith]

My position is this: 3v3 has turned into a possession based form of hockey.

So if Matthews loses 4 out of 10 times (that is being generous), he would spend the next (I don't know) 30 to 60 seconds trying to get the puck back. And since there is a lot more room out on the ice, he is skating more than just on the PP. By the time he gets the puck back, he is tired and ready for a change so the second-best (or 3rd) offensive player is now taking his place to go into the offensive zone and try to score a goal.

Now if they use their 2nd best defensive player to start the game, he either gets the puck (Matthews now changes and gets on the ice in like 10 seconds) or uses all his energy to get the puck back so Matthews can use his Energy in the Offensive zone.

I know what scenario I would prefer to use to win the game.

The best strategy is to have the best all around player out there taking that faceoff, as long as he's pretty good at winning faceoffs, and especially when he's better at taking faceoffs than the other guy this season. First, you have a better chance to start out with possession. Second, if you don't start out with the puck, you still have the best guy defending against the loss while also having the best chance to recover the puck and the best chance to score if that happens.

This stuff about burning out Matthews is ridiculous. It's playing with words. It's called taking a shift, not burning him out. Not every shift he plays is with us having possession. He frequently takes multiple shifts in OTs that go late. He can come on after Kampf and if we quickly lose possession he'll stay out for a minute or more "burning out" - so should we just not play him at all until the last minute of OT, if we get there?

I know what scenario I want - use Matthews to start and either he is leading the attack after a faceoff win or is our best chance of getting the puck back after a faceoff loss, and then roll out the best players after him. Basically our fucking strategy at all other times in every game before OT, for christ sake.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

Officially the worst Kampf related literature

 

[LeafOfFaith]

you're literally just summarizing your thesis and repeating yourself at this point. and now lobbing insults apparently.

but again. over the past two seasons, the Leafs have a better OT record when Kampf starts than when he does not. this is simply indisputable.

also, do you think Kampf's FO% at the end of the year is likely to be closer to the current 8 game sample, or his previous 2 year sample?

Okay buddy.

Please just repeat the party line without bothering to accept what you'd see if you peel back a layer. 5-1-2 record if you want to make even the slightest effort here.

Last year, Kampf was at 51%, Matthews was at 52% and the year before 56%. Tavares was 58% and 60%, and this year 63%. I don't care where Kampf's percentage is this year. He's not as good at faceoffs as the other guys ever, and this year is considerably worse. Do you like facts, because those are some fucking facts for you, but you'll just go with the herd and say that it doesn't matter or spin in some other direction.

If the goal is to get immediate possession, Kampf is your worst bet right now, and your third worst bet at all times. And if we're thinking about what happens after a faceoff loss, Matthews is the best person to be out there, and playing for a fucking minute in OT in the defensive zone increases of chances of puck recovery and does not "burn him out" for the rest of the extra session.

 

[zeke]

My position is this: 3v3 has turned into a possession based form of hockey.

So if Matthews loses 4 out of 10 times (that is being generous), he would spend the next (I don't know) 30 to 60 seconds trying to get the puck back. And since there is a lot more room out on the ice, he is skating more than just on the PP. By the time he gets the puck back, he is tired and ready for a change so the second-best (or 3rd) offensive player is now taking his place to go into the offensive zone and try to score a goal.

Now if they use their 2nd best defensive player to start the game, he either gets the puck (Matthews now changes and gets on the ice in like 10 seconds) or uses all his energy to get the puck back so Matthews can use his Energy in the Offensive zone.

I know what scenario I would prefer to use to win the game.

yep.

But at the same time i'm not even wedded to this!

A big issue was that Matthews and Marner kept fucking up our OTs and were getting destroyed out there. Keefe didn't start Kampf in OT in his first year and a half as a leaf - it was the shittastic OT play that forced his hand, and in december of kampf's second season as a leaf he got his first OT shift..... and so far the new strategy has worked.

But Kampf might well start getting destroyed out there and we might have to change it up.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Anyway, you guys are sapping the life from me and wasting way too much of my working hours with your bullshit.

I will actually try to take a break now and go into read only. Please stop replying to the posts. I'm done. I don't care if you agree or disagree. It's fucking clear as day, and one day you'll all fucking laugh at yourselves about preferring Kampf over Matthews to start out OT. For now, enjoy that ludicrous position.

As you all know, I'm always looking for an excuse to stop posting, because this is the worst time-wasting shit imaginable, so this was enough of one to sign off. As always, I hope the break sticks and I never feel the need to post again.

 

[zeke]

I keep referring to the 8 game sample as if it means something because I said "this year". And it does mean something. That's how he's doing on faceoffs this year - worst on the team.

it's 8 games. he has an enitre career track record here. he's 28.

Yes, 1-2-3 is basically 1-5. It's five out of six times that we didn't win in OT - where we either lost in OT or had to go to the shootout where what happens is irrelevant to the OT.

no, 1-2-3 is nothing remotely close to 1-5.

Everything else you've said is bullshit. We're 5-1-2 when Kampf is basically nonexistent in OT. That's just a fact you'll need to come to accept.

Yes we're pretty much unbeatable when Matthews gets the puck with possession to start his first shift. Exactly.

And your claim that my case was based purely on faceoff percentage is pure propaganda and you should be ashamed to have to resort to it. Because again, we already know there are other players better at taking the faceoff.

your posts are there for us to read.

The issue was always about what happened when we lose the faceoff.

yes when Kampf loses the faceoff he has yet to get scored on and has given up basically no scoring chances either.

 

[zeke]

Anyway, you guys are sapping the life from me and wasting way too much of my working hours with your bullshit.

I will actually try to take a break now and go into read only. Please stop replying to the posts. I'm done. I don't care if you agree or disagree. It's fucking clear as day, and one day you'll all fucking laugh at yourselves about preferring Kampf over Matthews to start out OT. For now, enjoy that ludicrous position.

As you all know, I'm always looking for an excuse to stop posting, because this is the worst time-wasting shit imaginable, so this was enough of one to sign off. As always, I hope the break sticks and I never feel the need to post again.

All this because you absolutely refuse to accept that Keefe isn't 100% a moron, that Kampf isn't 100% useless, and that starting a defensive C in OT can possibly have any merit.

I can just imagine you having to walk away from a conversation with Keefe because he tried to explain to you his OT rationale and you couldn't get him understand that he was a hockey moron.

 

[Preston]

Let's call a truce. You don't have to agree with it. Being on the fence or disagreeing with it is perfectly fine! But you can at least acknowledge that there's logic behind it and it isn't completely insane. It's more about optimizing Matthews and extracting as much value as possible out of him than Kampf being some elite defensive stud.

it may not be a permanent thing but nothing was worse than Matthews losing the opening draw and watching him waste two minutes chasing the other team around. I'd rather Kampf do that and Matthews play offence.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

Let's call a truce. You don't have to agree with it. Being on the fence or disagreeing with it is perfectly fine! But you can at least acknowledge that there's logic behind it and it isn't completely insane. It's more about optimizing Matthews and extracting as much value as possible out of him than Kampf being some elite defensive stud.

it may not be a permanent thing but nothing was worse than Matthews losing the opening draw and watching him waste two minutes chasing the other team around. I'd rather Kampf do that and Matthews play offence.

Reasonable peacekeeping Preston is the worst version of Preston.

 

[Wayward DP]

The irony of all this is that most of us who are defending this Keefe decision are anti-Keefe generally.

But yeah, what peacekeeper presto said.

 

[Deckie007]

I'd expect a "lawyer" to be better at arguing.

 

[manny]

I'd expect a "lawyer" to be better at arguing.

Most aren’t in my experience.

Good at believing they are right, yes.

 

[Deckie007]

Most aren’t in my experience.

Good at believing they are right

He's got a doctorate in that, 10000000000000000000000000000%