• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

GDT #8 - 2023/10/28 - TOR @ NSH 7pm - LoF Revenge Game

LeafOfFaith said:
Dummy, for our purposes here, how do you count the faceoff loss in the Calgary one to be a loss when the play is whistled dead for a penalty in the first 3 seconds and we get possession? It’s the exact same as if Kampf won that draw and we got possession.

Talk about fucking doubling and tripling down. Jesus.
Click to expand...

lol.

lmao even.

faceoff percentage was your entire argument up until it was proven wrong.

now suddenly faceoff percentage doesn't matter.

and of course, you won't bother to check video of the other faceoffs to see if any of the faceoff wins ended up with a quick loss of possession.
 
zeke said:
lol.

lmao even.

faceoff percentage was your entire argument up until it was proven wrong.

now suddenly faceoff percentage doesn't matter.

and of course, you won't bother to check video of the other faceoffs to see if any of the faceoff wins ended up with a quick loss of possession.
Click to expand...
What a bunch of fucking nonsense. You specifically singled out those two games, and I discredited your claim.

So this whole time, we were arguing about who the best faceoff man is, right? And your argument then is that Kampf is the best faceoff guy on the team, right?

Or are you now just grasping at any straw you can?
 
In short:

- Leafs were a disaster 3v3 before Kampf started taking those opening faceoffs
- Leafs have been very good 3v3 since Kampf started taking the opening draws
- Leafs have given up 0 goals at 3v3 with Kampf on the ice
- Leafs have given up by far the lowest xGA/60 at 3v3 with Kampf on the ice
- Kampf rarely gets caught out on long defensive shifts at 3v3

Kampf isn't some sure thing must-play guy on 3v3 but the reasons why he's playing this role at the moment are pretty obvious.

If our OT play goes south again, then i'm sure we'll switch things up again.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
What a bunch of fucking nonsense. You specifically singled out those two games, and I discredited your claim.
Click to expand...

Dear christ you can't even follow your own arguments.

LeafOfFaith said:
So this whole time, we were arguing about who the best faceoff man is, right? And your argument then is that Kampf is the best faceoff guy on the team, right?
Click to expand...

what??? lmao.

Faceoff percentage WAS YOUR ARGUMENT, not mine. your ENTIRE argument, at that.

And now it's not.

LeafOfFaith said:
Or are you now just grasping at any straw you can?
Click to expand...

roflmao lof
 
zeke said:
Dear christ you can't even follow your own arguments.



what??? lmao.

Faceoff percentage WAS YOUR ARGUMENT, not mine. your ENTIRE argument, at that.

And now it's not.



roflmao lof
Click to expand...
You're obviously trying to be stupid.

Faceoff percentage was NEVER the entire argument. The entire argument was that Kampf shouldn't be on the ice in OT because he sucks. He sucks because he's been shit at faceoffs this season, and when he loses the faceoff and gets stuck out there, it's not a good thing for us if we want to oh, you know, WIN THE FUCKING OVERTIME.

So his faceoff percentage is fucking garbage at 41%. That's already known and a fact. What "argument" is there to be had about that? Please answer.

And then, you fleshed out his actual game by game performance and cited the Leafs record pre-Kampf and post-Kampf, and I pointed out that when you actually fucking looked at it, we were shit with him on the ice if we didn't immediately get possession. So then YOU tried to fall back on technical faceoff wins and losses rather than focus on the fucking reality of getting immediate possession.

Got it? Are you fully up to speed on your bullshit now?
 
LeafOfFaith said:
You're obviously trying to be stupid.

Faceoff percentage was NEVER the entire argument. The entire argument was that Kampf shouldn't be on the ice in OT because he sucks. He sucks because he's been shit at faceoffs this season, and when he loses the faceoff and gets stuck out there, it's not a good thing for us if we want to oh, you know, WIN THE FUCKING OVERTIME.

So his faceoff percentage is fucking garbage at 41%. That's already known and a fact. What "argument" is there to be had about that? Please answer.

And then, you fleshed out his actual game by game performance and cited the Leafs record pre-Kampf and post-Kampf, and I pointed out that when you actually fucking looked at it, we were shit with him on the ice if we didn't immediately get possession. So then YOU tried to fall back on technical faceoff wins and losses rather than focus on the fucking reality of getting immediate possession.

Got it? Are you fully up to speed on your bullshit now?
Click to expand...

LoF: "Faceoffs is not the entire argument but kampf sucks because he sucks at faceoffs this season and his faceoff percentage is fucking garbage at 41% and oh oopsie actually i was wrong about their record when he loses faceoffs so 1/3 of his faceoff losses weren't actually faceoff losses so faceoffs percentage doesn't actually mean much and faceoff percentage is not what actually matters but Kampf sucks at faceoffs so shouldn't take OT faceoffs because faceoff percentage is all that matters."

got it.
 
zeke said:
LoF: "Faceoffs is not the entire argument but kampf sucks because he sucks at faceoffs this season and his faceoff percentage is fucking garbage at 41% and oh oopsie actually i was wrong about their record when he loses faceoffs so 1/3 of his faceoff losses weren't actually faceoff losses so faceoffs percentage doesn't actually mean much and faceoff percentage is not what actually matters but Kampf sucks at faceoffs so shouldn't take OT faceoffs because faceoff percentage is all that matters."

got it.
Click to expand...
I know why you're pissy and completely irrational about this, and manufacturing bullshit to try to desperately get a win here.

You went to your desk and did all that work to come back with the game by game Kampf stats to say, hey gang, guess what, pre-Kampf the Leafs were bad in OT and since Kampf, we're a lot better!! Only to have me peel it back another layer to show you that if Kampf stays on for 20 seconds or more, we almost never win. Ouch, you did all that work just to provide me with the information I needed to bolster my case and prove having Kampf out there is a bad idea. Why? Because if he loses the faceoff, we rarely ever get a win in OT. So really, the only reason for him to be out there is if he almost always wins the faceoff and/or we immediately gain possession, which he doesn't and we don't. 5-1-2 proves that to us.

But oh, now Zeke is fucked, so he says, but wait, the Calgary and NYR games were faceoff losses, so I win!!! Except that the NYR game looks like a win since we get possession IMMEDIATELY and they never touch the puck before Marner scores. And the Calgary game saw us get possession within 3 seconds because a penalty was called. So shit, Zeke has to accept the 5-1-2 record or else admit defeat here, but no, forget about the fact that we got possession at puck drop, we gotta still call those two games faceoff losses and not count them as they should be.

What a sad little man you are. And then you have the gall to talk about doubling down and not being able to admit when you're just plain fucking wrong.
 
And to again refresh your shitty memory, the subject here was always whether Kampf should take the opening faceoff, not whether he is the best faceoff guy on the team.

He's obviously not the best faceoff guy on the team, which needs no argument.

But then you and others went into the "oh but his defense is so fucking good and we don't ever lose with him and we have a 0-0 record with him" and all that other bullshit. Then you provided more stats, and the extra work you did proved that we are great when there's a faceoff win and he disappears, but basically can't win in OT if he stays on for more than 20 seconds.

Is your memory sufficiently refreshed now, zekie? Any more bullshit you want to manufacture?
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I know why you're pissy and completely irrational about this, and manufacturing bullshit to try to desperately get a win here.

You went to your desk and did all that work to come back with the game by game Kampf stats to say, hey gang, guess what, pre-Kampf the Leafs were bad in OT and since Kampf, we're a lot better!! Only to have me peel it back another layer to show you that if Kampf stays on for 20 seconds or more, we almost never win. Ouch, you did all that work just to provide me with the information I needed to bolster my case and prove having Kampf out there is a bad idea. Why? Because if he loses the faceoff, we rarely ever get a win in OT. So really, the only reason for him to be out there is if he almost always wins the faceoff and/or we immediately gain possession, which he doesn't and we don't. 5-1-2 proves that to us.

But oh, now Zeke is fucked, so he says, but wait, the Calgary and NYR games were faceoff losses, so I win!!! Except that the NYR game looks like a win since we get possession IMMEDIATELY and they never touch the puck before Marner scores. And the Calgary game saw us get possession within 3 seconds because a penalty was called. So shit, Zeke has to accept the 5-1-2 record or else admit defeat here, but no, forget about the fact that we got possession at puck drop, we gotta still call those two games faceoff losses and not count them as they should be.

What a sad little man you are. And then you have the gall to talk about doubling down and not being able to admit when you're just plain fucking wrong.
Click to expand...

Stop.

Try to understand for a second.

You made the claims about faceoff percentage being all-important. You've said this from the start. Faceoffs were never important to my argument - I keep saying that the difference between Tavares and Kampf is 1 extra faceoff win every 15 or so OTs, and not a huge deal.

You then tried to make a claim about the leafs OT record when Kampf won or Kampf lost the opening faceoff, to show how all-important faceoff percentage was. Except you got it wrong, and counted two faceoff losses as wins (1/3 of the your 'wins' count!), and were shown that the leafs OT record was good regardless of whether he won or lost the draw.

You then tried to say that those two faceoff losses weren't "really" faceoff losses, which a) you didn't realize just weakened your argument about the importance of faceoff percentage, and b) you didn't bother checking to see if any of the faceoff wins resulted in a quick possession loss, and decided to just pretend all the faceoff wins were really wins while only those two faceoff losses weren't "really" faceoff losses.

Again, my arguments have never had anything to do with faceoff percentage. I've given arguments about win percentage, goals percentage, goals against, expected goals percentage, expected goals against, and shift length - but faceoff percentage was YOUR argument, not mine.
 
Ok here we go!!

Kampf is in the NHL for a reason: He is a GOOD Defensive player (well ok defensive player. or bad if he is playing with Reevo).

He is good in his own zone, he can win faceoffs. He is what they call "shut down" defenders (Matthews is probably better but whatever). That is what he does. He doesn't get a paycheck because he can score. Period.

SO what they want him to do is WIN THE PUCK BACK.

When he does that, he GETS OFF THE ICE. When he doesn't he stays on the ice until he needs to make a shift change (you know he can't stay on for 5 minutes straight).

This makes sense in the MANAGING RESOURCES/ENERGY of our players. You would want Matthews or Nylander to be fresh in the OFFENSIVE zone instead of wasting their ENERGY following the other team around the defensive zone.

That is why Kampf is on the team. PERIOD.

Can we stop this, it is boring.
 
zeke said:
Stop.

Try to understand for a second.

You made the claims about faceoff percentage being all-important. You've said this from the start. Faceoffs were never important to my argument - I keep saying that the difference between Tavares and Kampf is 1 extra faceoff win every 15 or so OTs, and not a huge deal.

You then tried to make a claim about the leafs OT record when Kampf won or Kampf lost the opening faceoff, to show how all-important faceoff percentage was. Except you got it wrong, and counted two faceoff losses as wins (1/3 of the your 'wins' count!), and were shown that the leafs OT record was good regardless of whether he won or lost the draw.

You then tried to say that those two faceoff losses weren't "really" faceoff losses, which a) you didn't realize just weakened your argument about the importance of faceoff percentage, and b) you didn't bother checking to see if any of the faceoff wins resulted in a quick possession loss, and decided to just pretend all the faceoff wins were really wins while only those two faceoff losses weren't "really" faceoff losses.

Again, my arguments have never had anything to do with faceoff percentage. I've given arguments about win percentage, goals percentage, goals against, expected goals percentage, expected goals against, and shift length - but faceoff percentage was YOUR argument, not mine.
Click to expand...
You have a problem with identifying the heart of the discussion apparently.

The issue is and always was whether Kampf should be out there at all, correct?

It starts at the faceoff. He's our worst faceoff guy this year, correct?

So next we go to see what happens after the faceoff. If he wins, he leaves quickly. If he loses, he stays on. Correct?

Looking at your game logs, I used 20 seconds or less as the reasonable marker for him leaving quickly, probably because of a faceoff win. The win or loss is not important for these purposes. Whether he leaves quickly or not is.

You then pointed to two games where he left quickly and said those were faceoff losses and shouldn't be counted, correct?

I showed you that the NYR one is obviously a win because we get possession FROM THE FACEOFF, so Kampf was irrelevant - in fact, in the video you can see him getting off the ice as soon as Marner enters the zone.

I showed you that the Calgary video where the play was called dead after 3 seconds, meaning Kampf was gone with PP1 showing up.

In other words, your whole argument now rests on whether the two technical faceoff losses, which saw Kampf leave in less than 16 seconds each time, change anything in any material way. They obviously don't. Kampf was gone quick both times, which is all we're talking about, and the Leafs won both times.

So again, Kampf leaves quickly, we're 5-1-2. If he stays more than 20 seconds, we're 1-2-3. No one has been talking faceoff percentages with you. We all know Kampf is at 41% and basically every other center on the team has been doing better. The topic was always what happens after the faceoff.

If you can't admit that you're running around in circles trying to bullshit your way around the actual result here, then that's your problem.
 
Pwner said:
Ok here we go!!

Kampf is in the NHL for a reason: He is a GOOD Defensive player (well ok defensive player. or bad if he is playing with Reevo).

He is good in his own zone, he can win faceoffs. He is what they call "shut down" defenders (Matthews is probably better but whatever). That is what he does. He doesn't get a paycheck because he can score. Period.

SO what they want him to do is WIN THE PUCK BACK.

When he does that, he GETS OFF THE ICE. When he doesn't he stays on the ice until he needs to make a shift change (you know he can't stay on for 5 minutes straight).

This makes sense in the MANAGING RESOURCES/ENERGY of our players. You would want Matthews or Nylander to be fresh in the OFFENSIVE zone instead of wasting their ENERGY following the other team around the defensive zone.

That is why Kampf is on the team. PERIOD.

Can we stop this, it is boring.
Click to expand...
It is boring. But we don't win in OT when Kampf can't immediately get us possession.

As you said, Matthews is better. He should start if the primary concern is defensive play after a faceoff loss.

Or, if the primary concern is winning the faceoff, Tavares should start.

Who shouldn't start? The guy who is the worst at faceoffs, and whose defense isn't worth shit if it leads to us not ever winning in OT when he stays out too long. Zeke's own homework showed that Matthews is like 2.5x better than Kampf in the takeaways department.

So, the novel concept being proposed is, play your best fucking players, especially in a 5 minute do or die that leads to a breakaway contest if you can't win it before then, especially when your best fucking players are superstars.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
It is boring. But we don't win in OT when Kampf can't immediately get us possession.

As you said, Matthews is better. He should start if the primary concern is defensive play after a faceoff loss.

Or, if the primary concern is winning the faceoff, Tavares should start.

Who shouldn't start? The guy who is the worst at faceoffs, and whose defense isn't worth shit if it leads to us not ever winning in OT when he stays out too long. Zeke's own homework showed that Matthews is like 2.5x better than Kampf in the takeaways department.

So, the novel concept being proposed is, play your best fucking players, especially in a 5 minute do or die that leads to a breakaway contest if you can't win it before then, especially when your best fucking players are superstars.
Click to expand...

It is about RESOURCE MANAGEMENT (sorry about the caps, just want to make my point clear).

You are a lawyer, so I will make an analogy that you might understand.

You have 2 Research Assistants on your team. One is good at researching History and Historical Rulings but doesn't get recent rulings or recent case law. The other is just as good at Historical Rulings but is SUPER at recent case law. (I am not a lawyer, so please don't pick apart the semantics of the jargon that I am using, you get the point).

How would you assign those 2 Research Assistants?
 
Whatever statistics you can come up with, I’m going to reject them out of hand if they tell you that you should play David Kampf in a “next goal wins” scenario instead of any of Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavares.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top