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Laine v Matthews

leafman101 said:
The thing is you don't even have to compare Matthres production to other leagues. Essentially every American player in the last decade has come through the USNDP. And Matthews destroyed all of their production. Kane, kessel, eichel, all of them. The he followed that up with being the best player in a pro league at 18 which has never really happened before outside of Crosby and Mcdavid in the NHL and Gretz in the WHA.
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Fair. I'm just doing the best I can with what I have to provide a better idea of what type of pre draft prospect he is. Which is a fair point of inquiry for an impending #1 pick without a whole ton of direct comparables.
 
Matthews or Laine make our prospect pool the envy of the NHL. Hell Puljujarvi isn't THAT far off. He is a hell of a prospect in his own right.
 
Position Players WAR since 2005
1. Datsyuk - 41.69
2. Thornton - 38.14
3. Ovechkin - 37.95
4. Crosby - 32.33
5. Pavelski - 29.16
6. Kopitar - 28.95
7. Marleau - 27.09
8. Toews - 26.41
9. Getzlaf - 25.81
10. D. Sedin - 25.00


Toews Rank in NHL Since 2007-08
Goals: 14th
Points: 17th
Goals Created: 16th
Goals per game: 13th
Points per game: 23rd
Goals created per game: 16th
Point Shares: 14th

Even by traditional offensive metrics Toews is a top 10-20 player in the league.
 
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MindzEye said:
Fair enough, then take his 2 ppg vs USHL competition. Which would roughly project to ~1.8 ppg in the CHL (1.1 to 1 is the pretty widely accepted rough conversion rate). Which is into the Tavares/Hall/Stamkos territory of pre draft prospects....2 seasons prior to draft eligibility.

He's still an elite, elite level of prospect, ranking among one of the top #1 picks of the last 16 years, just outside of the elite elite tier (Crosby, McJesus)
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Oh as i said i like matthews a lot and i think he can be better than toews.

My only issue is that we don't extrapolate us ntdp games vs d1 competition as being the same as d1 regular season or tournament games.

Matthews numbers on a number of levels plus the eye test is enough for me to know how good he is. I just dont want us to start with matthews ntdp numbers and then use the same justifications with other ntdp guys vs ncaa guys.
 
MindzEye said:
Fair. I'm just doing the best I can with what I have to provide a better idea of what type of pre draft prospect he is. Which is a fair point of inquiry for an impending #1 pick without a whole ton of direct comparables.
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Oh yeah, I'm not knocking the effort its valuable information. I'm just saying his production in the leagues he did play in is completely unprecedented.
 
leafman101 said:
Position Players WAR since 2005
1. Datsyuk - 41.69
2. Thornton - 38.14
3. Ovechkin - 37.95
4. Crosby - 32.33
5. Pavelski - 29.16
6. Kopitar - 28.95
7. Marleau - 27.09
8. Toews - 26.41
9. Getzlaf - 25.81
10. D. Sedin - 25.00


Toews Rank in NHL Since 2007-08
Goals: 14th
Points: 17th
Goals Created: 16th
Goals per game: 13th
Points per game: 23rd
Goals created per game: 16th
Point Shares: 14th

Even by traditional offensive metrics Toews is a top 10-20 player in the league.
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Top 20 sure

I just hate the best player in the game lists that have him. Im not convinced hes the best forward on chicago.
 
BKerr said:
Top 20 sure

I just hate the best player in the game lists that have him. Im not convinced hes the best forward on chicago.
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Yeah arguably he isn't and its a fun debate to have but at that point what does it really matter practically speaking. Peter Forsberg, Mike Modano and Mats Sundin weren't as good as Lindros, Jagr, Lemeuix and Sakic but at the end of the day they are all first ballot hall of famers.
 
If we win the lottery and Phoenix gets the second pick. Do we ask (there's no harm in asking) for OEL and the second for Matthews? Are there people here that wouldn't even ask?


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I don't think they'd do it. I probably would. But i think we should just take Matthews and enjoy him for the next 10 years.
 
There's no chance of that. Nobody will give a shit down there if Matthews is a local kid. It's nothing like here.

Not to mention the difference between Matthews and Laine is highly, highly unlikely to amount to one of the best defencemen in the game(who's not yet 25 himself).
 
I can't say no to OEL and Laine.

My question is, if we do win and get Matthews, do we really go after Stamkos still? I feel like if we get Laine or Puljujarvi, we're going hard after Stammer. Not sure if we get Matthews whether we do.
 
if we do win and get Matthews, do we really go after Stamkos still?
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Yes. Matthews is cheap for the first 3 years of his career, so it's not a cap space issue and can play 3C or on the wing if necessary while breaking in. When he's good enough to push Kadri out of the 2C slot, then trade Kadri....or maybe Stammer changes his mind about playing wing, and we put Stammer on his off wing with Marner & Matthews feeding him sweet, sweet feeds for the off wing one timer.

Add talent now, worry about where it all fits later.
 
The GM said he'd never trade OEL for the first overall, then got fired.
Arizona has to try it. Nothing has worked 20 years of shit attendance. Any of major sports league would have moved the team already.
 
At the end of the day, this is a business.

There will be no Arizona if they cant put butts in the seats. I wouldn't put any scenario out of question if they feel it puts butts in the seats.
 
Does a hometown boy really put more butts in the seats.... especially if you give up too much and it sets you back on the road to actually winning hockey games.

Winning games, being competitive, generating excitement that the franchise might do something. That draws fans much more than the curiosity of a local kid IMO.

Sure its great to have both, but no one cared that Kobe Bryant was from philly, or that Michael Jordan was from the Carolinas, or that the blackhawks attendance issues where solved by guys from Winnipeg and Buffalo, etc... etc...

Icons become icons not because they were born in that town, but because they put on that jersey and win games with it on.
 
Ya wouldn't make a lot of sense for Arizona. Only reason they might consider it is that Matthew's might be more likely to re-sign?
 
BKerr said:
Does a hometown boy really put more butts in the seats.... especially if you give up too much and it sets you back on the road to actually winning hockey games.

Winning games, being competitive, generating excitement that the franchise might do something. That draws fans much more than the curiosity of a local kid IMO.

Sure its great to have both, but no one cared that Kobe Bryant was from philly, or that Michael Jordan was from the Carolinas, or that the blackhawks attendance issues where solved by guys from Winnipeg and Buffalo, etc... etc...

Icons become icons not because they were born in that town, but because they put on that jersey and win games with it on.
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You are talking about players in sports that are already established in those markets. It depends on if the hometown hockey hero can be translated into big marketing and excitement around the team.

I don't think anyone is getting OEL + #2 but that would be my ask. I don't think it's out of the question to get Stroke + #2 though.
 
I think both deals are massive rip offs. The difference between two and one is not oel a legit top 10 nhl defenceman or strome a number 3 overall pick with this type of upside.

No leaf fan would trade rielly to move from 2 to 1 and oel is better than rielly right now. No leaf fan would trade marner to move from 2 to 1. Nor should they.

Arizona would be insane and would set back the process of building a winning team by making either deal. Its just dumb
 
BKerr said:
I think both deals are massive rip offs. The difference between two and one is not oel a legit top 10 nhl defenceman or strome a number 3 overall pick with this type of upside.

No leaf fan would trade rielly to move from 2 to 1 and oel is better than rielly right now. No leaf fan would trade marner to move from 2 to 1. Nor should they.

Arizona would be insane and would set back the process of building a winning team by making either deal. Its just dumb
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That's kind of the point from a Leaf perspective though. If you're the Leafs, you've got the #1 overall pick, there's a franchise #1 center available and Arizona comes calling, then you're not looking to work out a reasonable deal that's fair for both sides. You only deal the pick if Arizona makes an absolutely demented offer.

Otherwise, you pat them on the head, tell them they have your sympathy because you know what it feels like to watch another team pick your home-town franchise center, and take Matthews.
 
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