GrandWazoo
Well-known member
Struble was a good story too. Dobes improved a lot as well. So did Primeau before.
Laval Rocket Thread
- Thread starter GGpX
- Start date
Sal_Butera
Well-known member
Struble, Mailloux?
Can’t blame Houle that’s he’s not been given an offensive F to “develop”.
This concept of development is a bullshit red herring to begin with.
Theres no guru that can magically turn chicken shit into McDavid. Now if development is fine tuning existing capabilities that’s another story - one with limitations to begin with
It’s all about applying hunger + work ethic to existing talent - can’t teach hunger
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Habsy
Not playing around anymore.
Habsy
Not playing around anymore.
The other viewpoint is exceptional coaches do more with less. Those are the ones that get the shot.
Laval should have been a playoff team
worm
Well-known member
See... I don't care about them winning. Develop players and have plug and play guys when the real team is actually good.
GrandWazoo
Well-known member
I most certainly don’t give him all the credits for goalies, but I get the sense that all the players that have progressed are because of Adam Nicholas and all the ones that stagnated are because of Houle.
GrandWazoo
Well-known member
Was it? Wasn’t exactly a great team on paper. They started the season terribly, lots of new players and their goalies couldn’t stop anything. They climbed back to be in the playoff race but never quite recovered from their start.
GrandWazoo
Well-known member
I think the team could do better than Houle but I don’t think he’s terrible.
worm
Well-known member
Any examples?
GGpX
Well-known member
About Houle... It's really a "chicken or the egg" debate.
Has he developed numerous NHLers since he's been hired in Laval three years ago? Nobody of note.
Was he given a ton of talented prospects that under-achieved or plateaued, or was he given a terrible hand because he inherited the result of Trevor Timmins's nonsense? Probably more of the latter.
Besides this year, Houle hasn't been given a single prospect of note. In the first two years, excluding Justin Barron which I'll mention seperately, the five best prospects he received/inherited were: Raphael Harvey-Pinard, Cayden Primeau, Jesse Ylonen, Jan Mysak and Mattias Norlinder. RHP improved into an NHLer, Primeau's improved into a fringe NHL backup (although as Habsy said, this isn't Houle's doing) and Ylonen isn't NHL caliber; he'll be playing the remaining years of his career in Europe or another team's AHL affiliate. Mysak hasn't improved since Junior & has since been traded, and Norlinder's a Euroleaguer that got overhyped before he got here.
Is there anyone on that list you can point to and say Houle fucked up with him? I can't.
The one you can possibly point to is Justin Barron. But even then, he was pretty good his first year with us at Laval. For who he is now, I don't know if he's stagnated, or he's lost his confidence, but he hasn't lived up to his billing as a potential top-4 d-man in the NHL.
If you look at the prospects he received this season:
Joshua Roy: Improvement, probably graduated to full-time NHLer.
Logan Mailloux: Improvement from the beginning of the year to where he is now.
Jayden Struble: He went from an early cut at the Habs camp to someone who improved all year & spent half the year in the NHL.
Jakub Dobes: Similar to Primeau, see above. Improvement from the start of the year to the end, but the credit shouldn't go to Houle. Also, the organization fucked up by giving him the reigns to the team without a veteran backup.
Sean Farrell: Stagnated, probably a lost cause.
Jared Davidson: Stagnated.
Emil Heineman: First full year in North America, but hasn't shown much yet. If he doesn't do something next year, he's probably toast.
Riley Kidney: Stagnated, might end up in the ECHL next year.
William Trudeau: Stagnated, and there isn't room for him in the NHL. Too many bodies.
So, all in all, what grade would I give Houle? An incomplete. I'm not sure who exactly from his first two seasons was supposed to turn into a superb NHLer and we've seen growth in some of the players he received this year. I'm fine with re-signing him, honestly.
The problem with judging coaches like Houle is that it's a lot more difficult to make a definitive statement on them. All NHL organizations now keep their top prospects in the NHL and they almost never play a single game in the AHL. The best three prospects that have gone pro for us in the last few years (excluding Reinbacher because he signed his ELC a few weeks before the end of the season) went directly to the NHL: Slaf, Caufield & Guhle. Caufield played a handful of games in the AHL, but nothing of significance.
Going back a few years: Kotkaniemi, Galchenyuk, Romanov, Lehkonen they all went directly to the NHL. Gallagher would have started directly in the NHL too if he wasn't playing his first pro season during the 2011-2012 lockout.
So the best prospects we've drafted can't be claimed by the AHL coach as the reason those players have been developped, so what's left? The scraps and longshots. Hey, J-F Houle, go turn Xavier Simoneau into an NHL regular, thanks.
Has he developed numerous NHLers since he's been hired in Laval three years ago? Nobody of note.
Was he given a ton of talented prospects that under-achieved or plateaued, or was he given a terrible hand because he inherited the result of Trevor Timmins's nonsense? Probably more of the latter.
Besides this year, Houle hasn't been given a single prospect of note. In the first two years, excluding Justin Barron which I'll mention seperately, the five best prospects he received/inherited were: Raphael Harvey-Pinard, Cayden Primeau, Jesse Ylonen, Jan Mysak and Mattias Norlinder. RHP improved into an NHLer, Primeau's improved into a fringe NHL backup (although as Habsy said, this isn't Houle's doing) and Ylonen isn't NHL caliber; he'll be playing the remaining years of his career in Europe or another team's AHL affiliate. Mysak hasn't improved since Junior & has since been traded, and Norlinder's a Euroleaguer that got overhyped before he got here.
Is there anyone on that list you can point to and say Houle fucked up with him? I can't.
The one you can possibly point to is Justin Barron. But even then, he was pretty good his first year with us at Laval. For who he is now, I don't know if he's stagnated, or he's lost his confidence, but he hasn't lived up to his billing as a potential top-4 d-man in the NHL.
If you look at the prospects he received this season:
Joshua Roy: Improvement, probably graduated to full-time NHLer.
Logan Mailloux: Improvement from the beginning of the year to where he is now.
Jayden Struble: He went from an early cut at the Habs camp to someone who improved all year & spent half the year in the NHL.
Jakub Dobes: Similar to Primeau, see above. Improvement from the start of the year to the end, but the credit shouldn't go to Houle. Also, the organization fucked up by giving him the reigns to the team without a veteran backup.
Sean Farrell: Stagnated, probably a lost cause.
Jared Davidson: Stagnated.
Emil Heineman: First full year in North America, but hasn't shown much yet. If he doesn't do something next year, he's probably toast.
Riley Kidney: Stagnated, might end up in the ECHL next year.
William Trudeau: Stagnated, and there isn't room for him in the NHL. Too many bodies.
So, all in all, what grade would I give Houle? An incomplete. I'm not sure who exactly from his first two seasons was supposed to turn into a superb NHLer and we've seen growth in some of the players he received this year. I'm fine with re-signing him, honestly.
The problem with judging coaches like Houle is that it's a lot more difficult to make a definitive statement on them. All NHL organizations now keep their top prospects in the NHL and they almost never play a single game in the AHL. The best three prospects that have gone pro for us in the last few years (excluding Reinbacher because he signed his ELC a few weeks before the end of the season) went directly to the NHL: Slaf, Caufield & Guhle. Caufield played a handful of games in the AHL, but nothing of significance.
Going back a few years: Kotkaniemi, Galchenyuk, Romanov, Lehkonen they all went directly to the NHL. Gallagher would have started directly in the NHL too if he wasn't playing his first pro season during the 2011-2012 lockout.
So the best prospects we've drafted can't be claimed by the AHL coach as the reason those players have been developped, so what's left? The scraps and longshots. Hey, J-F Houle, go turn Xavier Simoneau into an NHL regular, thanks.
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GrandWazoo
Well-known member
The best 3 prospects he had were Roy, Barron and Mailloux, and he seemed to have done a great job with each one. Even Barron, he looked like shit at training camp, and looked great when he was recalled, until confidence issues started sinking in again, but that was in the NHL.
Even Xhekaj benefited for his trip to Laval. Not much to blame Houle for honestly. And while wins are nice, it’s not his primary job and he shouldn’t sacrifice development in favor of wins.
GGpX
Well-known member
Another thing to add... There's a limit to what coaches can realistically do to "develop" players.
Despite some here (hi Sal) who compared Owen Beck to Ryan O'Reilly, no coach on earth can teach Owen Beck how to score or generate any kind of real offense at the NHL level. He simply doesn't have the talent. There are some things, such as hockey sense, that are God given. A coach can maybe improve it a little, but it usually is what it is.
Then it becomes a debate or discussion about, what exactly does an AHL coach do to "develop" players? When hockey "pundits" say he needs seasoning!, it's a broad and kind of dismissive way of approaching it because it doesn't mean anything specific beyond the player in question needs more experience.
Personally, my opinion on "development" at the AHL level has changed a lot recently. Of the draft picks we have, I'd only sign maybe 25% of them and get a bunch of AHL veterans to surround them, without cutting out the opportunities for the young players. I don't care about William Trudeau, no offense to him. I don't care about Xavier Simoneau, no offense to him. I care about Joshua Roy & Logan Mailloux. Those two are the players who, if they make the NHL, could have an impact with us. Developing long-shot prospects who might end up as fringe NHLers? Sorry, I think our energy would be best served focusing on the higher tier prospects.
The AHL has a rule in regards to the amount of veterans you can have, but I'd always have maximum possible. With the remaining spots, I might sound like Rejean Tremblay, but I'd probably sign the best overagers from the Q and have them play as depth forwards to fill out the quota. I'd get coaches to do much more focused on-ice skill training and off-ice tape study with the key prospects. If at the end of the ELC, they aren't NHL regulars, cut bait and try again.
Despite some here (hi Sal) who compared Owen Beck to Ryan O'Reilly, no coach on earth can teach Owen Beck how to score or generate any kind of real offense at the NHL level. He simply doesn't have the talent. There are some things, such as hockey sense, that are God given. A coach can maybe improve it a little, but it usually is what it is.
Then it becomes a debate or discussion about, what exactly does an AHL coach do to "develop" players? When hockey "pundits" say he needs seasoning!, it's a broad and kind of dismissive way of approaching it because it doesn't mean anything specific beyond the player in question needs more experience.
Personally, my opinion on "development" at the AHL level has changed a lot recently. Of the draft picks we have, I'd only sign maybe 25% of them and get a bunch of AHL veterans to surround them, without cutting out the opportunities for the young players. I don't care about William Trudeau, no offense to him. I don't care about Xavier Simoneau, no offense to him. I care about Joshua Roy & Logan Mailloux. Those two are the players who, if they make the NHL, could have an impact with us. Developing long-shot prospects who might end up as fringe NHLers? Sorry, I think our energy would be best served focusing on the higher tier prospects.
The AHL has a rule in regards to the amount of veterans you can have, but I'd always have maximum possible. With the remaining spots, I might sound like Rejean Tremblay, but I'd probably sign the best overagers from the Q and have them play as depth forwards to fill out the quota. I'd get coaches to do much more focused on-ice skill training and off-ice tape study with the key prospects. If at the end of the ELC, they aren't NHL regulars, cut bait and try again.
AHL teams have maybe 2-5 prospects that have any shot of making the NHL and being productive