Leaf Rumours

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

It is to bad that Kaberle screwed us over a couple of years ago or we might be in a better position as a team.

Heck, its to bad that Kaberle, Sundin, McCabe, Kubina and Tucker all ****ed the team they apparently loved over. The Leafs might be in the playoffs if not for Muskoka 5.

And you are damn right it still pisses me off. We couln't win with them so it was time for a real rebuild and they wouldn't do us the favor that essentially every athlete asks for in the sports world (be traded to a winner or with a team with chance to win). Why? Because it was to comfrotable in Toronto for them.

Burke isn't going to let that happen again.

 

[mbow30]

It is to bad that Kaberle screwed us over a couple of years ago or we might be in a better position as a team.

Heck, its to bad that Kaberle, Sundin, McCabe, Kubina and Tucker all ****ed the team they apparently loved over. The Leafs might be in the playoffs if Muskoka 5.

kaberle didn't screw the team (first of all).

second of all, this team wouldn't have made the playoffs this year be replacing kaberle with carter.

carter had a whole 12 more points than kaberle did.

as for the others... mccabe was traded; the return for sundin would have beengrabovski, higgins and a pick (big deal), the big kubina trade was kubina for.. kyle mclaren (thank god that didn't happen), and there was never a deal involving tucker on the table that he nixed.

would this team be considerably better right now with jeff carter, chris higgins and a few late firsts?

not really.

 

[Montana]

The team would of been far better off if management had of let JFJ start the rebuild when he originally wanted to......then he could have traded McCabe at his peak value, and traded Tucker at his peak value.

 

[leafman101]

The team would be far better off if management didn't hire JFJ.

 

[Volcanologist]

No, JFJ should never have been hired.

EDIT: heh.

 

[hockeylover]

The team would of been far better off if management had of let JFJ start the rebuild when he originally wanted to......

I still think to blame management for the deals JFJ made is a load of crap. I mean, even if they told him to try and make the playoffs, Raycroft for Rask is just a bad hockey deal plain and simple. It didn't help us in the present or the future.

 

[leafman101]

kaberle didn't screw the team (first of all).

second of all, this team wouldn't have made the playoffs this year be replacing kaberle with carter.

carter had a whole 12 more points than kaberle did.

as for the others... mccabe was traded; the return for sundin would have beengrabovski, higgins and a pick (big deal), the big kubina trade was kubina for.. kyle mclaren (thank god that didn't happen), and there was never a deal involving tucker on the table that he nixed.

would this team be considerably better right now with jeff carter, chris higgins and a few late firsts?

not really.

Yeah, the team wouldn't have been any better right now, but those two extra firsts would have been nice.

Philly picked 19, and Sbisa, Eberle and Del Zotto went 19-22.

And Montreal's pick was 25, and Carlson and Ennis went 26 and 27.

Would be nice to have two of those guys in the system.

 

[hockeylover]

Deals for shitty goalies really screwed our team - Rask, 1st, 2nd, 4th for garbage. Coulda picked up FA goalies on the cheap and gotten better performances in all likelihood.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

Yeah, the team wouldn't have been any better right now, but those two extra firsts would have been nice.

Philly picked 19, and Sbisa, Eberle and Del Zotto went 19-22.

And Montreal's pick was 25, and Carlson and Ennis went 26 and 27.

Would be nice to have two of those guys in the system.

Sorry but that is just crazy talk and you know it.

Two more years into this process than it actually started. Some assets which could have been used for more. A couple of more 1st rounders when we sit with a total of zero for the next two years makes a HUGE difference.

Wake up.

Would the team be better now in terms of wins losses? No. But it would have been in a better situation overall. And who knows, maybe last year we get a better first round pick rather than pussy footing around with be competitive. This team in the long run would have been better IMO. And quite frankly, you know that. This team still would of sucked like it has but it would have more assets to offer a better future instead of hoping for Burke to pull of a miracle in trading Kaberle two years later.

 

[Montana]

I still think to blame management for the deals JFJ made is a load of crap.

No ones blaming management for the deals JFJ did make......I'm blaming them for the deals they didn't allow him to make.

If he's allowed to start the full rebuild when he wanted to.....prior to the trade deadline in 05/06, I suspect we're a far different team than we are now.

I mean, even if they told him to try and make the playoffs, Raycroft for Rask is just a bad hockey deal plain and simple. It didn't help us in the present or the future.

Raycroft for Rask happened the following offseason....after he was told he wasn't allowed to do a full rebuild.

Hard to know if he'd of made such a deal had he been allowed to trade veterans like McCabe and Tucker 4 months earlier.....I think it's safe to say he probably wouldn't, but no one can say for sure.


clearly it was a terrible trade though......then, and now.

 

[leafman101]

You really want JFJ making those big moves?

I really don't think it would've helped any. Bad management is bad management. Doens't matter if they take route 1 or route 2.

 

[leafman101]

Sorry but that is just crazy talk and you know it.

Two more years into this process than it actually started. Some assets which could have been used for more. A couple of more 1st rounders when we sit with a total of zero for the next two years makes a HUGE difference.

Wake up.

Would the team be better now in terms of wins losses? No. But it would have been in a better situation overall. And who knows, maybe last year we get a better first round pick rather than pussy footing around with be competitive. This team in the long run would have been better IMO.

Their prospect pool would be slightly better. And they'd probably have Schenn or Kane instead of Kadri.

But thats about it. Still no playoffs.

 

[Montana]

You really want JFJ making those big moves?

I really don't think it would've helped any. Bad management is bad management. Doens't matter if they take route 1 or route 2.

He couldn't have done any worse than what we ended up getting for McCabe and Tucker......Mike Van Ryn and years and years of dead cap space from buying out Tucker.

Considering Tucker was in the midst of a 61 point season, and McCabe was in the midst of a 68 point season, yes I think that almost anything JFJ got at that deadline for those two, would have been better than what we ended up with.

 

[leafman101]

The rumours at the time were McCabe for Ladd and Johnson and Tucker for Torres.

Solid players to add to the lineup. But nothing to worry about missing out on.

I personally wouldn't have changed anything. Kessel/Phaneuf is a pretty damn good core that they wouldn't have been able to have if things went differently.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

You really want JFJ making those big moves?

I really don't think it would've helped any. Bad management is bad management. Doens't matter if they take route 1 or route 2.

Everyone and their mother new after the entire "process" to find a new GM would not put us in a good position. It was whacked from the beginning. That was bush league, even Florida or Tampa doesn't do that kind of crap.

Sorry, but Pat Quinn did not do us any favors there. JFJ was the third option.

 

[Montana]

The rumours at the time were McCabe for Ladd and Johnson and Tucker for Torres.

Rumors are nice and all.....but we've no idea if that's what we would of ended up with.


None the less,

Jack Johnson + Ladd + Torres >>>> MVR, and 6 years of 1 million in dead cap space.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

The rumours at the time were McCabe for Ladd and Johnson and Tucker for Torres.

Solid players to add to the lineup. But nothing to worry about missing out on.

I personally wouldn't have changed anything. Kessel/Phaneuf is a pretty damn good core that they wouldn't have been able to have if things went differently.

5 years with no playoffs potentially about to hit 6 was totally worth it.

 

[leafman101]

Its better. Never said it wasn't. But its not the difference between being a good team, and not.

The team wouldn't have been any better the last few years.

 

[Montana]

Its better. Never said it wasn't. But its not the difference between being a good team, and not.

The team wouldn't have been any better the last few years.

Impossible to say......if those guys move then, then maybe Kaberle leaves when Carter + 1st are offered, maybe Sundin moves at the deadline....maybe Kubina....etc etc...

Impossible to know what kind of domino effect us being able to start our rebuilding process all that much earlier may have had, but it's pretty safe to say we'd be better off for it now, and Burke would have had even more assets at his disposal.

We already say what he was able to do with what he had......add a handful of first round picks to his prospect pool, add some guys like Torres, Ladd and Johnson.......odds are he's far closer to his finished product than he is right now.

Hell......maybe he'd of been able to land Kessel without having to deal our 1st this year.

 

[mbow30]

Sorry but that is just crazy talk and you know it.

you totally just changed your argument. you said this would be a playoff team.

Two more years into this process than it actually started.

not sure why this matters. like leafman said, the prospect pool would be a bit better. that's it.

it's not like we'd be talking about crosby, or malking, or even a toews or kane here. we're looking at a situation where kaberle is replaced with carter, and the leafs have a couple of extra late firsts.

that's a good thing to have. but wouldn't make this team substantially better now, or in the future.

Some assets which could have been used for more. A couple of more 1st rounders when we sit with a total of zero for the next two years makes a HUGE difference.

depends on where/who those first rounders are.

if we're talking about john carlsson then sure. if we're talking about luca sbisa then who really cares?

Would the team be better now in terms of wins losses? No. But it would have been in a better situation overall. And who knows, maybe last year we get a better first round pick rather than pussy footing around with be competitive. This team in the long run would have been better IMO. And quite frankly, you know that. This team still would of sucked like it has but it would have more assets to offer a better future instead of hoping for Burke to pull of a miracle in trading Kaberle two years later.

in all probability the future would look slightly better.

the best young players, however, would be exactly the same.

kessel, schenn, kadri (or schenn, two players who i see as interchangeable), bozak, gustavsson...

again, the only guy who changes that is carlsson and who knows if the leafs would have picked him.