JaysCyYoung
Legend
Yes. If we're throwing in Kulemin it makes the most sense for them to toss in their first rounder as well. They don't really need them for the most part anyways given the competitive nature of their club.
Leaf Rumours
- Thread starter Hoss
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Yes. If we're throwing in Kulemin it makes the most sense for them to toss in their first rounder as well. They don't really need them for the most part anyways given the competitive nature of their club.
UWHabs
Well-known member
Sheer lunacy to think that you could get more than Staal for Kaberle and Kulemin (who if he still wants 3M/year, should have almost 0 value).
If I'm Pittsburgh, I ask for Kaberle and Schenn for Staal. Maybe something like Kaberle, Kulemin, and another prospect like a Stalberg or Bozak, but I doubt that Pittsburgh trades Staal for only Kaberle.
hockeylover
Well-known member
And I say: Then good luck to you in replacing Gonchar. Have a nice day.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
Don't be an idiot. Pittsburgh has absolutely no leverage at the moment and Kaberle has outscored Staal every single season that he's been in the league as a defenceman.
UWHabs
Well-known member
They still have a solid player who's still only going to be 22 next year. True, they won't get Kaberle and Schenn for him, but if I were them, I'd start the ask at that rate.
Toronto comes back and says haha, very funny.
If Kaberle has no extension signed, Pittsburgh absolutely would be crazy to trade Staal for him. I mean, they can just wait until July 1st and sign Martin if they want a puck-mover. Staal is not worth a 1 year rental. If they can get Kaberle signed to an extension, then maybe they consider it, but if I were them, I'd definitely be asking for other prospects in return as well.
hockeylover
Well-known member
Rick Curran says he expects that whatever team is trading for Kaberle would contact him to discuss whether Kaberle has interest in re-signing there. We've talked about this many, many times. They can't actually put ink to paper til July 1st though.
Martin's not nearly as good offensively as Kaberle.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
And again the Leafs would promptly hang up the phone at that point.
Staal Points Progression
2006-07: 42
2007-08: 28
2008-09: 49
2009-10: 49
Four year average: 42 points.
Kaberle Points Progression
2006-07: 58
2007-08: 53
2008-09: 31 (45 point pace)
2009-10: 49
Four year average: 48 points.
So again... remind me why the Leafs should throw in their potential franchise former top five selection on defence who has already proven himself capable of logging 21 minutes a game on an NHL team's top four blueline corps as a teenager for a man that can't even outscore a defenceman?
Staal Points Progression
2006-07: 42
2007-08: 28
2008-09: 49
2009-10: 49
Four year average: 42 points.
Kaberle Points Progression
2006-07: 58
2007-08: 53
2008-09: 31 (45 point pace)
2009-10: 49
Four year average: 48 points.
So again... remind me why the Leafs should throw in their potential franchise former top five selection on defence who has already proven himself capable of logging 21 minutes a game on an NHL team's top four blueline corps as a teenager for a man that can't even outscore a defenceman?
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
That Kabby and Kulemin for Staal deal is a vast overpayment by us. Even Kabby one for one for Staal would make me hesitate. There needs to be a + in that deal.
And those of you laughing at 2nd overall for Kaberle should remember that Kabs is an elite, proven, healthy, and relatively young defender who can score 70 points on a competitive team, run your PP, control the pace of a game, and play nearly half the game.
I'm not trading that within the division without getting the 2nd overall back and taking Seguin, who may never even pan out.
And those of you laughing at 2nd overall for Kaberle should remember that Kabs is an elite, proven, healthy, and relatively young defender who can score 70 points on a competitive team, run your PP, control the pace of a game, and play nearly half the game.
I'm not trading that within the division without getting the 2nd overall back and taking Seguin, who may never even pan out.
Volcanologist
Well-known member
you must have missed the memo....Seguin is a sure-fire franchise player and the Leafs got ripped off by the Bruins no matter what Kessel does.
Or at least, that is the prevailing opinion out there.
hockeylover
Well-known member
It's annoying that Markov has a year left on his deal and you know if he were on the block, everyone would be asking the world for him yet we have to put up with people suggesting things like "Hamill and a 2nd round pick!" for Kaberle.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
Not unexpected, Volc.
But comparing Kaberle to Kessel is the missing link there. One was a kid with injury and apparent attitude issues who topped 30 goals once at the time of the trade. The other is a repeat All Star defender, top 5 or 10 at his position, healthy, under contract - a proven and very valuable commodity.
Trading high picks for potential versus trading high picks for a proven All Star are two entirely different things. I wouldn't part with a high first for imperfect and unproven talent, but I would expect to do so for one of the best players at his position and still in his prime for a few more years.
But comparing Kaberle to Kessel is the missing link there. One was a kid with injury and apparent attitude issues who topped 30 goals once at the time of the trade. The other is a repeat All Star defender, top 5 or 10 at his position, healthy, under contract - a proven and very valuable commodity.
Trading high picks for potential versus trading high picks for a proven All Star are two entirely different things. I wouldn't part with a high first for imperfect and unproven talent, but I would expect to do so for one of the best players at his position and still in his prime for a few more years.
Volcanologist
Well-known member
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Andy-Strickland/Come-Get-Your-Hockey-Fix-Blues-Clues/5/28936
-Toronto is a realistic possibility for Alexei Ponikarovski as things didn't quite work out for him in Pittsburgh.
-Toronto is a realistic possibility for Alexei Ponikarovski as things didn't quite work out for him in Pittsburgh.
Volcanologist
Well-known member
Honestly, I'd take Poni back. He shouldn't cost a lot, wants to play here, has size and speed, is good defensively, and can score ~25 goals.
Easily a better option than a Raffi Torres.
Burke probably won't do it though.
Easily a better option than a Raffi Torres.
Burke probably won't do it though.
UWHabs
Well-known member
Kaberle is already 32. That's not old, but he's past his prime. The second half of last year he got like 14 points in his last 40 games. You can blame it on a bad team, but that's not the production you want from a puckmover.
He's still a very good player, but you're not getting a 21 year old who's put up 2 straight nearly 50 point campaigns playing mostly on the 3rd line. Sure, Pittsburgh needs the puck mover, but if I'm in their shoes, Staal + Martin is more valuable to me than Kaberle and someone like Armstrong or Torres.
He's still a very good player, but you're not getting a 21 year old who's put up 2 straight nearly 50 point campaigns playing mostly on the 3rd line. Sure, Pittsburgh needs the puck mover, but if I'm in their shoes, Staal + Martin is more valuable to me than Kaberle and someone like Armstrong or Torres.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
If I am Pittsburgh i pass on the Staal for Kaberle option., and its not because the deal is unfair. It's because i feel i have better opitons at my disposal.
1) I bleive in my kids being able to handle the PP, in Goligosky and Letang
2) I scour the FA market for a shutdown guy to replace Gill and Scuderi who werent replaced last year.
3) If i decide to move Staal i do it for a winger, where IMO they are in dire need of help. Moreso than on defense.
1) I bleive in my kids being able to handle the PP, in Goligosky and Letang
2) I scour the FA market for a shutdown guy to replace Gill and Scuderi who werent replaced last year.
3) If i decide to move Staal i do it for a winger, where IMO they are in dire need of help. Moreso than on defense.
number17
Mod Squad
Burke never really minded having Poni around though. He said he didn't feel Poni was part of his core group, but acknowledged he's a good 2-way player, consistent 20G scorer, and said he's a very positive influence in the dressing room, helped the young Russian players along and a good man, a good teammate overall.
If the $$ makes sense I can see Poni re-signing in Toronto.
If the $$ makes sense I can see Poni re-signing in Toronto.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
Defenders hit their prime in their early 30s.
Kaberle is certainly not past his prime.
Kaberle is certainly not past his prime.
JaysCyYoung
Legend
If he was a bruising, physical shutdown defenceman like Derian Hatcher or Mike Rathje (both of whom went downhill quickly after they passed the wrong side of 30) I would agree. But he's a smooth-skating, offensive-minded defenceman that rushes with the puck. Niedermayer, Lidstrom, Zubov, Rafalski, and countless others have proven that there is no "prime" range for defenceman of that mould and that they last well into their late-30s with little to no drop-off in production or ability.
number17
Mod Squad
They won the cup in 09 with pretty much a very similar group of wingers, so as much as I think they can use some upgrade on their wings, winger shouldn't be the top of their priority.
Replacing Gonchar, OTOH, should. They all witnessed first hand what happened to the team when Gonchar was out of the lineup for first half of the season. Gonchar's a big part of their transition game, that I wouldn't be confident about Goligoski taking over just yet. Letang doesn't have that puck moving game in him.