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Leaf Rumours

No I disagree ME.

To talk in Toronto terms, if your linemates are Wallin and Lundmark, who are such offensive blackholes, not only it means they can't help improve your offensive numbers, it inevitably also affects the style you're going to play. Your coach tells you to play a checking role, you are told a 0Pts night where you are even is better than a 2 points night when you're -2, then you play a different game. You and your linemates are thinking 'safety' all the times. You don't gamble, and you just chip it in all the times. You don't pursue the puck unless you're sure someone has your back. It's just a different game you're playing out there.

Even Stajan's production went up when he had 1. better linemates and 2. an offensive role instead of checking role and 3. more PP time. Why is it so hard to believe Staal cannot make a 15 points improvement?
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Oh, I think he can make a 15 point improvement overall. Including an increase in PP time.
 
Forget trading Kaberle and Kulemin for Staal. I wouldn't trade Kaberle straight up for Jordan Staal. I've had a lot of chance to watch the guy play over the past few years during the Penguins' playoff runs, and frankly, I don't think his stats are lying. From only scoring 1PPG in the OHL, to never cracking the 50 point mark in any of his four NHL seasons, I just don't see a deep reservoir of untapped offensive potential there. I think he is what he is---a very good two-way 3rd line center with some size, and an average 2nd line center. And I don't care if you handed him the Leafs' #1 center job and had him play with Phil Kessel all season with PP time---he'd likely crack the 50-point mark for the first time, but I don't think he'd get to 60 points. He's just not an offensively gifted player.

On the subject of Marc Savard---no thanks as well. Too old, his contract's too long, and he's too concussed. I don't really see a fit with the Bruins period, actually. The only asset they have that'd interest me would be our draft pick---which they're not going to give back to us for Kaberle.
 
Not necessarily regarding Staal but it's come up a couple times...

Should we be deterred from adding young talent at center just because we have Bozak/Kadri? Kadri did play on the wing in London with Tavares and put up impressive numbers in those playoffs (1.5 for ME).
 
29 goals when you're a rookie and you suck offensively?

21g and 28a playing with 3rd line bums sucks offensively?

Give him someone to play with 25 minutes a game who can put the puck in the net (Kessel) and watch those numbers rise.
 
I think the focus should be on the wing. But if you can bring in a legit #1 center, or a guy with legit, legit #1 center potential, then it has to at the very least be considered.
 
hockeylover said:
Not necessarily regarding Staal but it's come up a couple times...

Should we be deterred from adding young talent at center just because we have Bozak/Kadri? Kadri did play on the wing in London with Tavares and put up impressive numbers in those playoffs (1.5 for ME).
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It's a helluva question. I am prepared to go into camp slotting those guys into the lineup (maybe Bozak-Grabovski-Kadri up the middle, to start things off). Thing is, you can never really count on young players, they develop at different speeds and in different ways. Similar thing in Columbus, in theory Brassard, Voracek and Russell could all play to their potential right off the bat.

You just can't count on it. If we want to be a playoff team, I'd feel much better with a more proven center in the mix.
 
Artnes said:
29 goals when you're a rookie and you suck offensively?

21g and 28a playing with 3rd line bums sucks offensively?

Give him someone to play with 25 minutes a game who can put the puck in the net (Kessel) and watch those numbers rise.
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42, 28, 49 and 49 points on one of the highest scoring and best NHL teams over that stretch, and unlike as has been claimed here, plenty of power-play time. That doesn't "suck" offensively, but it's not worth giving up a #1 offensive defenseman who actually HAS proven that he can score over 50 points in the NHL.
 
Artnes said:
29 goals when you're a rookie and you suck offensively?

21g and 28a playing with 3rd line bums sucks offensively?

Give him someone to play with 25 minutes a game who can put the puck in the net (Kessel) and watch those numbers rise.
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That would be a full 3 minutes a game more than any other forward in the league plays.

Nobody plays that many minutes....and shit, Jordan already plays 20
 
Nazem Kadri - 1.66
Bobby Ryan - 1.61
Ryan Getzlaf - 1.54
Mike Richards - 1.53
Jeff Carter - 1.16 (minor exception)

Woah. Took out some from your list ME. Sounds good to me. Would've been even more if he didn't start off so slow after getting sent down.

And playoffs - 2.25
 
LeafGm said:
42, 28, 49 and 49 points on one of the highest scoring and best NHL teams over that stretch, and unlike as has been claimed here, plenty of power-play time. That doesn't "suck" offensively, but it's not worth giving up a #1 offensive defenseman who actually HAS proven that he can score over 50 points in the NHL.
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Is the argument here really that a 21 year old kid who has scored 49 points in back-to-back seasons, isn't a 50-point player?

It's the Antropov Argument, in reverse.
 
axlsalinger said:
Is the argument here really that a 21 year old kid who has scored 49 points in back-to-back seasons, isn't a 50-point player?
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That's not my argument. I've been clear that I see his ultimate upside as a 65 point ridiculous good 2 way centre.

Even just stacking his draft season OHL numbers against other players who played their first post draft season in a professional league, his numbers aren't impressive. Throw into that the fact that his offence has shown little growth through 4 seasons and the questions about his upside are legit.

*edit* Here is the only comparable from that portion of the list

Patrice Bergeron - 1.04
 
axlsalinger said:
Is the argument here really that a 21 year old kid who has scored 49 points in back-to-back seasons, isn't a 50-point player?

It's the Antropov Argument, in reverse.
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No, that's not really the argument. The argument is that:

1) Staal is an average at best offensive player.
2) Staal hasn't shown any sign that he's got untapped offensive potential, in the NHL or in junior.
3) Kaberle, as a defenseman, is a better offensive player.
4) Thus, trading Kaberle for Staal is a bad deal for us.

If he'd picked up the extra point each of the past two seasons and gotten to the 50 point mark, it wouldn't change any of those points.
 
hockeylover said:
Nazem Kadri - 1.66
Bobby Ryan - 1.61
Ryan Getzlaf - 1.54
Mike Richards - 1.53
Jeff Carter - 1.16 (minor exception)

Woah. Took out some from your list ME. Sounds good to me. Would've been even more if he didn't start off so slow after getting sent down.

And playoffs - 2.25
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Yeah, Kadri had a cracker of a year.

My concern with my list is as I mentioned earlier, I really would like to get my hands on the goals per game number from the junior leagues and normalize the older stats to the numbers we're seeing now. Donald Audette wouldn't be scoring 2.30 ppg in the QMJHL today. It makes some of the names I list less relevant for comparison and I'm not a big fan of that for obvious reasons.
 
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...le/827744--cox-kaberle-sweepstakes-heating-up
Maple Leafs president/GM Brian Burke said Wednesday from Las Vegas that he already has “four concrete offers” on the table for the veteran blueliner, and that another eight teams have made initial inquiries.

“Once I get to L.A. for the draft, I expect things to heat up even more,” said Burke.

....

“There’s a really good chance he’ll be coming back to Toronto,” said Burke. “Believe me, the draft is not a deadline for us to trade Tomas Kaberle. It’s only draft-specific if it involves draft picks.”

Interestingly, Burke said he’s confident he could already get a first-rounder for Friday night’s draft, something in the bottom third of the first round, but wants different assets for Kaberle.

“Look, I traded picks to get Phil Kessel,” he said. “I want to get better now.”
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As much as I hate to admit this ... and God I cant stand this guy ..... but the leafs would have been so much better off with a guy like antropuff in the lineup ...... maybe by keeping kaberle and limiting his minutes to 20 a night, he could resign again for a hometowner and give the leafs a top 5 defensive core in the league (arguably higher).
Question .... why does everyone keep raving about the flyers defensive core??? You dont think that Kaberle on that defence makes him number one offensive weapon for them?
 
Doesn't surprise me to read Burke say Kaberle has a good chance of being back in Toronto. If someone had already offered Burke what he thought Kaberle was worth the deal would have been done.
 
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