New Canadian Politics Thread

[LeafGm]

The key advantage is that there's no party machinery to pre-select candidates. We'd get a much better pool of people entering the fray.

Perhaps.

But the lack of a selection process run by party machinery certainly hasn't done much to deliver better candidates/elected officials at the municipal level.

the biggest hurdle I foresee is convincing those in power to authorize changes that would fundamentally change the system to their and their party's detriment

Yep.

See: the Trudeau Liberals almost immediately bailing on their strong promise to overhaul the electoral system that delivered them absolute power for four years.

Or Toronto city council reversing their decision to change to ranked balloting for the next election.

 

[Wayward DP]

Perhaps.

But the lack of a selection process run by party machinery certainly hasn't done much to deliver better candidates/elected officials at the municipal level.



Yep.

See: the Trudeau Liberals almost immediately bailing on their strong promise to overhaul the electoral system that delivered them absolute power for four years.

Or Toronto city council reversing their decision to change to ranked balloting for the next election.

or even the embarrassing tap dance currently going on in BC, where it looks like they are deliberately sabotaging the referendum on electoral reform.

 

[zeke]

structural deficit for eternity, increasing debt.

bungled rollout of social programs.

extreme fringe elements within the party.

lack of competent ministers, staffers, etc (i.e. the machinery of government)

well, here, I'm not sure how any of these are specific to the NDP.

overly beholden to union interests.

the union one is interesting - though again i don't get the sense that union-related issues will change all that much no matter who is in charge.

and to be honest I don't hold Horwath in very high regard either

I mean, we can never know for sure, but she seems pretty sharp to me. and realistic. and, potentially, a lot less comfortable with corruption than the other two.

negative economic repercussions because of their tax policy (although I'm not sold on this, I think the rich should pay more)

This is definitely the one area where there might be real concern - severe/stupid corporate tax hikes could scare away business and investment.

BUT, in general, their proposed tax hikes seem both modest and nuanced to me.

 

[zeke]

Yep.

See: the Trudeau Liberals almost immediately bailing on their strong promise to overhaul the electoral system that delivered them absolute power for four years.

Or Toronto city council reversing their decision to change to ranked balloting for the next election.

thing is, those half-measures do have plenty of bad consequences.

I'm not sure change can be done in baby steps.

 

[Wayward DP]

well, here, I'm not sure how any of these are specific to the NDP.

that is true. but while I refuse to vote for Ford for this and other reasons, the financial irresponsibility (of all parties) makes it hard to support any of them.

the union one is interesting - though again i don't get the sense that union-related issues will change all that much no matter who is in charge.

this is also true. Wynne did a lot of cozying up to unions and little side deals to buy labour peace. the cons would presumably run a hard bargain. I'm not sure Horwath would be worse than Wynne, but I think financially the NDP is likely more beholden than the Libs.

I mean, we can never know for sure, but she seems pretty sharp to me. and realistic. and, potentially, a lot less comfortable with corruption than the other two.

she's been leader for what, 8 years now? and failed to really gain any traction whatsoever until she became the almost default option.

I guess as much as I have problems with the Liberals, I do respect Kathleen Wynne's competence. That's not the same as agreeing with her decisions. who knows though, this could just be a case of incumbency bias. Horwath is an unknown and I'm not sure she has convinced me I want to take the leap. Personally I find her pretty uninspiring. If I'm being honest, of the three leaders I probably like Wynne the most.

This is definitely the one area where there might be real concern - severe/stupid corporate tax hikes could scare away business and investment.

BUT, in general, their proposed tax hikes seem both modest and nuanced to me.

on the other hand, much of the forces that affect our economy are out of the hands of provincial politicians, so there is in theory only so much damage they can do. at the same time, I do support the underlying notion that we need to reconfigure and rebalance our tax system so that the wealthier pay more (income tax isn't the best way to do this, but you can only ask for so much)

 

[worm]

Can someone list the downsides of the ndp winning?

Rae Days!

 

[worm]

the biggest hurdle I foresee is convincing those in power to authorize changes that would fundamentally change the system to their and their party's detriment

Reform party >>

 

[SundinsTooth]

Barbarians at the Gate if the NDP win, or some other such nonsense.

 

[Altair]

that is true. but while I refuse to vote for Ford for this and other reasons, the financial irresponsibility (of all parties) makes it hard to support any of them.




this is also true. Wynne did a lot of cozying up to unions and little side deals to buy labour peace. the cons would presumably run a hard bargain. I'm not sure Horwath would be worse than Wynne, but I think financially the NDP is likely more beholden than the Libs.




she's been leader for what, 8 years now? and failed to really gain any traction whatsoever until she became the almost default option.

I guess as much as I have problems with the Liberals, I do respect Kathleen Wynne's competence. That's not the same as agreeing with her decisions. who knows though, this could just be a case of incumbency bias. Horwath is an unknown and I'm not sure she has convinced me I want to take the leap. Personally I find her pretty uninspiring. If I'm being honest, of the three leaders I probably like Wynne the most.





on the other hand, much of the forces that affect our economy are out of the hands of provincial politicians, so there is in theory only so much damage they can do. at the same time, I do support the underlying notion that we need to reconfigure and rebalance our tax system so that the wealthier pay more (income tax isn't the best way to do this, but you can only ask for so much)

Yeah, especially since Canadian competative advantage is falling as it is due to the American tax cuts.

Last thing ontario needs is to tax the rich and corparations, it will act as drag on the economy.

 

[Wayward DP]

Yeah, especially since Canadian competative advantage is falling as it is due to the American tax cuts.

Last thing ontario needs is to tax the rich and corparations, it will act as drag on the economy.

NAFTA is a much bigger issue than Ontario's corporate tax rate. NAFTA goes belly up and the tax rate means very little.

 

[zeke]

Rae Days!

amazing that the most evil thing the NDP government is remembered for.....is unilaterally screwing public sector union employees.

 

[BeLeafer]

Perhaps.

But the lack of a selection process run by party machinery certainly hasn't done much to deliver better candidates/elected officials at the municipal level.

Not sure about elsewhere, but they definitely get involved at that level in Toronto.

 

[Altair]

NAFTA is a much bigger issue than Ontario's corporate tax rate. NAFTA goes belly up and the tax rate means very little.

It won't help.

But true, that is the elephant in the room.

And I still trust the NDP more than the PCs, but I won't pretend that the NDP don't come with their own wrinkles.

 

[BeLeafer]

amazing that the most evil thing the NDP government is remembered for.....is unilaterally screwing public sector union employees.

No, no, no! They caused a global recession.

 

[BeLeafer]

and the thing is we now have the technology to replace most of what that party machinery was good for.

in fact, technology gives us the opportunity to transform our outdated and failing democracies into much truer democracies that are more responsive and representative of the people.

but, at the same time, it's not easy, and there are all sorts of pitfalls we'd have to avoid.

They are definitely dinosaurs. Useful for the ruling elite though.

 

[Wayward DP]

It won't help.

But true, that is the elephant in the room.

And I still trust the NDP more than the PCs, but I won't pretend that the NDP don't come with their own wrinkles.

agree with the bolded. but we are choosing from very imperfect options.

 

[UWHabs]

that is true. but while I refuse to vote for Ford for this and other reasons, the financial irresponsibility (of all parties) makes it hard to support any of them.




this is also true. Wynne did a lot of cozying up to unions and little side deals to buy labour peace. the cons would presumably run a hard bargain. I'm not sure Horwath would be worse than Wynne, but I think financially the NDP is likely more beholden than the Libs.




she's been leader for what, 8 years now? and failed to really gain any traction whatsoever until she became the almost default option.

I guess as much as I have problems with the Liberals, I do respect Kathleen Wynne's competence. That's not the same as agreeing with her decisions. who knows though, this could just be a case of incumbency bias. Horwath is an unknown and I'm not sure she has convinced me I want to take the leap. Personally I find her pretty uninspiring. If I'm being honest, of the three leaders I probably like Wynne the most.





on the other hand, much of the forces that affect our economy are out of the hands of provincial politicians, so there is in theory only so much damage they can do. at the same time, I do support the underlying notion that we need to reconfigure and rebalance our tax system so that the wealthier pay more (income tax isn't the best way to do this, but you can only ask for so much)

The scary part is that Horwath has been leader for so long and yet is basically an unknown still. She might be fine, but it doesn't inspire confidence that someone can be a party leader for so long and yet we still have no real idea of how she would be. She hasn't been a particularly strong leader for them, which doesn't make people feel warm and cozy about how she would actually run the province.

 

[BeLeafer]

The scary part is that Horwath has been leader for so long and yet is basically an unknown still. She might be fine, but it doesn't inspire confidence that someone can be a party leader for so long and yet we still have no real idea of how she would be. She hasn't been a particularly strong leader for them, which doesn't make people feel warm and cozy about how she would actually run the province.

In fairness, until they started shitting their pants about Ford, the media have given her scant coverage relative to the other leaders.

 

[zeke]

Farah Nasser @FarahNasser
BREAKING: @IpsosCanada poll for @globalnews show if election were today seat-rich 905 region of the GTA would deliver Doug Ford and the PCs a majority government. One day before #ONElxn , poll shows among decided voters PCs 39% NDP 36% Liberals 19% #onpoli

 

[Altair]

Farah Nasser @FarahNasser
BREAKING: @IpsosCanada poll for @globalnews show if election were today seat-rich 905 region of the GTA would deliver Doug Ford and the PCs a majority government. One day before #ONElxn , poll shows among decided voters PCs 39% NDP 36% Liberals 19% #onpoli

Yeah, what we have all been seeing. The liberal vote stubbornly refuses to shift to the other left wing party. The compete opposite of 2015 when the NDP collapsed and their voters went liberal.

Kudos for them on voting their conscience (like libertarians in 2016) but shame they didn't jump on the anyone but ford bandwagon.