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New Canadian Politics Thread

manny said:
Meanwhile, if the surtaxes are removed, Canadian producers will suddenly be competing in the Canadian market with Chinese imports (and yeah, they’ll be cheaper and *possibly* better.)
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But I think this is overstated for reasons I've already mentioned.

BYD doesn't compete with Honda and Toyota here in the EV market. Honda literally has 1 EV in North America, a crossover SUV. Toyota, likewise only has a SUV. Neither has plans to offer anything comparable to a BYD's best selling cars in north america any time soon. Also, neither builds those EV's here.

As for those potentially cannibalizing sales from what Toyota and Honda make in Canada, the majority of the production in Alliston is the CR-V, which isn't a competitor and the Civic SI (about 30K civics sold in Canada in total, all badges not just the SI), most of which are sold in the US as you noted ....who will continue with their fuckery. Toyota mostly produces Lexus SUV's here, not a competitor to BYD.

Chrysler builds mini vans, Chargers, Challengers, and 300's here. Ford builds SUV's and the one EV made in the country, the Mustang Mach E. Chev builds trucks. I just don't see the threat from 30K compact EV's. Maybe in a few years when they start exporting the Atto 3 (mid sized crossover) there's a threat to the Mustang and the Japanese SUV's we make (mostly for export, as you noted)

Again, the whole counter argument about the threat BYD is to the Canadian auto industry is just overblown. BYD is a threat to mostly Tesla in Canada. Throw in a bit of Hyundai, Chevy, and VW and that's it.

The two issues just aren't connected. Our protectionism mostly comes from the US nudging us to protect the Big 3 with them and Europe nudging from the other side for all of us to have a united front together against Chinese automakers...well, the Europeans started allowing BYD shipments as of May, and fuck what the US wants.
 
MindzEye said:
But I think this is overstated for reasons I've already mentioned.

BYD doesn't compete with Honda and Toyota here in the EV market. Honda literally has 1 EV in North America, a crossover SUV. Toyota, likewise only has a SUV. Neither has plans to offer anything comparable to a BYD's best selling cars in north america any time soon. Also, neither builds those EV's here.

As for those potentially cannibalizing sales from what Toyota and Honda make in Canada, the majority of the production in Alliston is the CR-V, which isn't a competitor and the Civic SI (about 30K civics sold in Canada in total, all badges not just the SI), most of which are sold in the US as you noted ....who will continue with their fuckery. Toyota mostly produces Lexus SUV's here, not a competitor to BYD.

Chrysler builds mini vans, Chargers, Challengers, and 300's here. Ford builds SUV's and the one EV made in the country, the Mustang Mach E. Chev builds trucks. I just don't see the threat from 30K compact EV's. Maybe in a few years when they start exporting the Atto 3 (mid sized crossover) there's a threat to the Mustang and the Japanese SUV's we make (mostly for export, as you noted)

Again, the whole counter argument about the threat BYD is to the Canadian auto industry is just overblown. BYD is a threat to mostly Tesla in Canada. Throw in a bit of Hyundai, Chevy, and VW and that's it.

The two issues just aren't connected. Our protectionism mostly comes from the US nudging us to protect the Big 3 with them and Europe nudging from the other side for all of us to have a united front together against Chinese automakers...well, the Europeans started allowing BYD shipments as of May, and fuck what the US wants.
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The US laughs! you fail to note that Trevor Milton was pardoned by Dotard. He'll introduce a EV that'll compete with BYD and win!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88fWUZhYb04
 
MindzEye said:
But I think this is overstated for reasons I've already mentioned.

BYD doesn't compete with Honda and Toyota here in the EV market. Honda literally has 1 EV in North America, a crossover SUV. Toyota, likewise only has a SUV. Neither has plans to offer anything comparable to a BYD's best selling cars in north america any time soon. Also, neither builds those EV's here.

As for those potentially cannibalizing sales from what Toyota and Honda make in Canada, the majority of the production in Alliston is the CR-V, which isn't a competitor and the Civic SI (about 30K civics sold in Canada in total, all badges not just the SI), most of which are sold in the US as you noted ....who will continue with their fuckery. Toyota mostly produces Lexus SUV's here, not a competitor to BYD.

Chrysler builds mini vans, Chargers, Challengers, and 300's here. Ford builds SUV's and the one EV made in the country, the Mustang Mach E. Chev builds trucks. I just don't see the threat from 30K compact EV's. Maybe in a few years when they start exporting the Atto 3 (mid sized crossover) there's a threat to the Mustang and the Japanese SUV's we make (mostly for export, as you noted)

Again, the whole counter argument about the threat BYD is to the Canadian auto industry is just overblown. BYD is a threat to mostly Tesla in Canada. Throw in a bit of Hyundai, Chevy, and VW and that's it.

The two issues just aren't connected. Our protectionism mostly comes from the US nudging us to protect the Big 3 with them and Europe nudging from the other side for all of us to have a united front together against Chinese automakers...well, the Europeans started allowing BYD shipments as of May, and fuck what the US wants.
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Yeah, my (mostly) unstated assumption is that cheap Chinese EVs will disrupt the market beyond just taking a percentage of existing EV sales from Ford, Tesla, Nissan, Chevy, etc.

It’s not just final assembly either, all the parts makers are facing an existential threat because of Dotard. Canada needs to fundamentally revamp its auto industry or try to ride it out and hope the integrated North American industry returns to viability. If we start letting cheap Chinese EVs in now, that realignment will be impossible. That’s certainly how the auto industry sees it, which is why removing the surtaxes is political kryptonite at the moment.
 
manny said:
Yeah, my (mostly) unstated assumption is that cheap Chinese EVs will disrupt the market beyond just taking a percentage of existing EV sales from Ford, Tesla, Nissan, Chevy, etc.

It’s not just final assembly either, all the parts makers are facing an existential threat because of Dotard. Canada needs to fundamentally revamp its auto industry or try to ride it out and hope the integrated North American industry returns to viability. If we start letting cheap Chinese EVs in now, that realignment will be impossible. That’s certainly how the auto industry sees it, which is why removing the surtaxes is political kryptonite at the moment.
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I still think you're overstating it mate and that Chinese EV's wouldn't play a role in that formula over the short and even medium term. Canadians buy about 2 million vehicles a year (1.91 million in 2024). Of that total, passenger cars made up about 250K with the Honda Civic making up the single largest market share of that with 31K units sold. Aside from some of those Honda's (only the SI's), none of that 250K is made in Canada. That's the market BYD would be competing in (and potentially disrupting) for the short term. Eventually yeah, the Otto 3 will be taking a run at the fat Canadian small to mid sized SUV market (1.1 million sold last year), but there's a ton of competition in there and it's not like we're brimming with EV infrastructure in Canada that makes charging and overall adoption easy.

Fwiw, there is no revamping of the Canadian auto industry that doesn't include EV production whether BYD or otherwise. Aside from a few thousand Mustang's, everything we produce is ICE meant for the US market. The only way to save that is to sort out Canada-US trade. Chinese EV's just aren't a significant factor in that.
 
Aberdeen said:
That's already been pointed out....and it's still a bargain
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To who? The guy working for minimum wage is not buying an EV. That's who a cheap car is aimed at, isn't it? I'm driving a 14-year-old Prius. I keep looking at something new, but I can't. Nobody's fault but mine, of course. :whistle:
 
Leafyblue said:
To who? The guy working for minimum wage is not buying an EV.
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Someone making minimum wage in 2025 is riding the bus. That guy doesn't own a car, because he can't afford rent, food, gas, and insurance all at the same time.

Who is a 30K EV for? Someone who:

- Can afford a new car, period. An ICE Kia K4, the cheapest passenger car from a budget South Korean automaker starts at 27K base model in 2025. Spend a few extra K (financed over 5 years) to get a vehicle that eliminates 90% or more of fuel costs from your budget.

- Has access to charging infrastructure that can keep up with their usage (If all you have access to is a 110v outlet, it takes 20 hours to charge a BYD Dolphin from empty to full....which is a 300km charge). So this would work for most people who do normal regional commute lengths. You might have to upgrade to a 16 amp (7 hour from empty to full) or even better a 240v home charger ($1000 additional cost) to cut it to about 4 hours. Also, access to a fast charger anywhere in your life (work, your grocery store, etc, etc) cuts that down to 40 minutes. Access to better charging infastructure than just a 110v stretches your potential commute length to communities like Barrie, KW, The Shwa, etc.

Leafyblue said:
I'm driving a 14-year-old Prius. I keep looking at something new, but I can't.
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The other side of this equation is that we need better public transportation and regional rail. Owning a personal vehicle should be a choice and not a necessity.
 
Exactly. You need to be well off to begin with before even thinking about buying a new car of any type. Most lower income people, if they own a set of wheels in the first place (or their lender does) are driving used shitboxes.

Minimum wage earners can barely afford a bus pass.
 
MindzEye said:
The other side of this equation is that we need better public transportation and regional rail. Owning a personal vehicle should be a choice and not a necessity.
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It should be, but it isnt and never will be a thing in North America.

As Grandmaster Flash famously rapped:

"Cause it's all about money, ain't a damn thing funny
You've got to have a car in this land of milk and honey."

(And yes, I am aware that some sources cite the lyric as "con" instead of "car", but the point is valid)
 
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