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OT: American Politics

axlsalinger said:
So you prefer a society full of young people who have no hope of buying a house, and are also facing decades of debt. That's cool, guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. Let's also tell them their degree is worthless and they're shitty people for trying to better themselves while we're at it.
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Their degree is worthless. They did make a shitty irresponsible decision. It’s pretty predictable. If you borrow money to finance your drama degree at a top shelf private school where tuition is $95k per year there’s virtually no chance you’ll end up with a job where you can pay that off your 400k. But if another kid goes to community college for the basics and finishes at a state university and works and borrows 25k to get an engineering or nursing degree then pays that off. We’re going to punish that person by using his tax dollars to pay off the other one’s loans?

Maybe like there was in the Old Testament, there ought to be a way for them to sell themselves into slavery to pay off their debts? They obviously can’t be relied on to make their own decisions and are very likely to continue making bad decisions.

Also at least some of these loans in question are for people who make plenty of money but spend it on new cars and luxury vacations.

Make the schools pay off the loans. They’re the ones that charged too much for the service provided. Just go back and tell them they overcharged for whatever degrees based on their value. So your 400k drama degree that is worth 20k, you owe that student 380k. It can be paid off against their school loans or directly to them if they don’t have any. For the engineering degree it would be less - maybe they only owe that person 275k. The schools are the ones that overcharged. Why should tax payers fix it? Especially if the problem is allowed to continue to happen?

Even if they’re going to pay off the loans, fix the problem. Don’t keep giving loans to kids not performing well or pursuing degrees where we already know the salary associated is not going to be enough.
 
cmon3 said:
See that’s where you’re wrong - and you probably know you’re wrong. You’re going to an extreme that virtually nobody supports to make your argument.
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No sir, you are wrong. The abortion issue isn’t birth control. It is a woman right to choose what to do with her body and it is a health care issue should she need it.

What it shouldn’t be is an arbitrator deciding for her if she should die waiting for health care.

Even if I didn’t agree with her decision, I would stand by her decision.

Women are bleeding out and dying because Republicans are ignoring a fundamental part of the issue.

Unless, of course, they need access to the procedure for impregnated mistresses
 
Leftists don't want abortions. I think if we could have a society where they were never needed, that would be fantastic.

But you need the option to have them. And when you create many complications to figure out what exception you're dealing with in a situation to understand whether you can do the procedure without the doctor going to jail or getting a fine, people can and will get caught in the middle, delay action, and die as a result.
 
UWHabs said:
Leftists don't want abortions. I think if we could have a society where they were never needed, that would be fantastic.

But you need the option to have them. And when you create many complications to figure out what exception you're dealing with in a situation to understand whether you can do the procedure without the doctor going to jail or getting a fine, people can and will get caught in the middle, delay action, and die as a result.
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Yeah well said
 
cmon3 said:
Their degree is worthless. They did make a shitty irresponsible decision. It’s pretty predictable. If you borrow money to finance your drama degree at a top shelf private school where tuition is $95k per year there’s virtually no chance you’ll end up with a job where you can pay that off your 400k. But if another kid goes to community college for the basics and finishes at a state university and works and borrows 25k to get an engineering or nursing degree then pays that off. We’re going to punish that person by using his tax dollars to pay off the other one’s loans?

Maybe like there was in the Old Testament, there ought to be a way for them to sell themselves into slavery to pay off their debts? They obviously can’t be relied on to make their own decisions and are very likely to continue making bad decisions.

Also at least some of these loans in question are for people who make plenty of money but spend it on new cars and luxury vacations.

Make the schools pay off the loans. They’re the ones that charged too much for the service provided. Just go back and tell them they overcharged for whatever degrees based on their value. So your 400k drama degree that is worth 20k, you owe that student 380k. It can be paid off against their school loans or directly to them if they don’t have any. For the engineering degree it would be less - maybe they only owe that person 275k. The schools are the ones that overcharged. Why should tax payers fix it? Especially if the problem is allowed to continue to happen?

Even if they’re going to pay off the loans, fix the problem. Don’t keep giving loans to kids not performing well or pursuing degrees where we already know the salary associated is not going to be enough.
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In my view, your opinion on this issue is just bizarre and way off the mark. But I respect that you feel strongly about it. It's fair that you don't support the concept. Of course we won't agree on every issue.

But the overall point we're trying to make here is that none of these things you mentioned are extreme positions. It's not extreme to want to help young people get out of massive debt. Surely even if you don't agree with the policy, you can understand the thought behind it.

You know what is extreme? The government forcing your wife, daughter or sister to bleed to death because she has a medical complication. Despite the fact that she's in the hospital begging for health care. I'd say threatening doctors with jail time if they try to save her life is pretty fucking extreme too.

Regarding trans people playing sports, what is the extreme view here? We're saying, please stop harassing these people, sometimes to the point of suicide, just have a little compassion. Meanwhile the Republican Party wants to spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours of valuable lawmakers time to write laws so they can discriminate against 5 teenagers who want to play volleyball. Everything the right does about this issue is for show. It's all designed to rile up low-information voters with hate and rage against something they don't understand or agree with, by demonizing this tiny group of people. That's extremism.

Trying to overthrow the federal government. Talking about deporting 12 million people. Saying they're animals who want to eat your pet dog and cat. Dismantling important federal agencies. Supporting a murderous dictator's right to invade other countries. MOAR tax cuts for billionaires and less help for the poorest members of society. Dismantling regulations and giving corporations way too much power, fuck the environment. These are the actual extremist policies.
 
cmon3 said:
Their degree is worthless. They did make a shitty irresponsible decision. It’s pretty predictable. If you borrow money to finance your drama degree at a top shelf private school where tuition is $95k per year there’s virtually no chance you’ll end up with a job where you can pay that off your 400k. But if another kid goes to community college for the basics and finishes at a state university and works and borrows 25k to get an engineering or nursing degree then pays that off. We’re going to punish that person by using his tax dollars to pay off the other one’s loans?

Maybe like there was in the Old Testament, there ought to be a way for them to sell themselves into slavery to pay off their debts? They obviously can’t be relied on to make their own decisions and are very likely to continue making bad decisions.

Also at least some of these loans in question are for people who make plenty of money but spend it on new cars and luxury vacations.

Make the schools pay off the loans. They’re the ones that charged too much for the service provided. Just go back and tell them they overcharged for whatever degrees based on their value. So your 400k drama degree that is worth 20k, you owe that student 380k. It can be paid off against their school loans or directly to them if they don’t have any. For the engineering degree it would be less - maybe they only owe that person 275k. The schools are the ones that overcharged. Why should tax payers fix it? Especially if the problem is allowed to continue to happen?

Even if they’re going to pay off the loans, fix the problem. Don’t keep giving loans to kids not performing well or pursuing degrees where we already know the salary associated is not going to be enough.
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do you support publicly funded healthcare?

and do you support public healthcare for folks who make "shitty irresponsible decisions", i.e. smoking, obesity, etc.?
 
cmon3 said:
Correctly. Women’s rights to kill unborn babies. Finished that for you.
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Unless or until one can claim an unborn fetus as a dependent on their tax return, it has no rights that supercede the mother's right to abort. Only people have rights. A fetus isn't a person. It may become one, or it may end up in a medical waste bag. It's entirely up to the woman who is carrying it and is no one else's business, especially the government's.
 
Wayward DP said:
for me, I accept that at least a chunk of my tax dollars pay for the shitty decisions that others have made. that's just part and parcel of the democratic society we've built. it definitely rankles me at times but I don't know any better options
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Sure, but we pay for healthcare and not mass student loan forgiveness.

But our post secondary education is insanely more reasonably priced.
 
leafman101 said:
Sure, but we pay for healthcare and not mass student loan forgiveness.

But our post secondary education is insanely more reasonably priced.
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Yeah, US student loans are just batshit crazy. I can't imagine graduating with hundreds of thousands in loans, other than going to a field where you know you're making 100k+ right out of school.

Never mind that most of the loan forgiveness programs are in the "if you pay your loan reliably for 10 years, we'll clear the rest." So it's not like these people are getting off scott-free on their loans entirely.
 
UWHabs said:
Leftists don't want abortions. I think if we could have a society where they were never needed, that would be fantastic.

But you need the option to have them. And when you create many complications to figure out what exception you're dealing with in a situation to understand whether you can do the procedure without the doctor going to jail or getting a fine, people can and will get caught in the middle, delay action, and die as a result.
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Abortion is legal for many exceptions up to and beyond the second trimester in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, but not in Jesus land USA.

The world is upside down right now.

Abortion should be seen as a necessity.
 
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Wayward DP said:
And we paid for Harper’s super targeted tax breaks too. And we paid for the abuse from residential schools. It’s part of the deal.
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Yeah but that’s the point. I don’t agree that we just have to accept that the government is going to blow taxpayer money on things that aren’t beneficial, or worse at detrimental to society.

like if you are going to forgive $1 trillion in useless loans you can’t just keep giving out those loans.
 
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