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OT: The News Thread

Re: OT - The News Thread

But the 1 out of 10 times is proof of a government plotting against it's people.
I pulled the 9/10 number out of my ass.

I bet it's 99/100 or more. And sure, it proves that they want to manufacture a reason to kick the protesters out of the area. Eventually they'll act up and do something stupid.

Hell, just last week protesters chained shut doors to a commercial building. How amazingly dangerous...
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I pulled the 9/10 number out of my ass.

Shocking, it's not like the rest of your argument comes from there either.

I bet it's 99/100 or more.

I bet you it's not

And sure, it proves that they want to manufacture a reason to kick the protesters out of the area.

Sure, it proves that they want to manufacture a reason to kick the protesters out of the area (but let's ignore you're glossing over admitting that you're okay with your government plotting against people who disagrees with it for a moment and move on)

Eventually they'll act up and do something stupid.

Actually, it suggests the opposite. It suggests a concern that they will actually protest effectively and draw attention to something they would rather keep hidden.

Why else use Agent Provocateurs if all you have to do is wait for the protesters to do it themselves and save risking embarrassment like the Quebec Provincial Police are feeling these days?

Hell, just last week protesters chained shut doors to a commercial building. How amazingly dangerous...

It's just stupid, and should be treated like a criminal act of trespassing. We have laws for dealing with people who don't want to follow the rules of peaceful protest.

But, defending the right to peacefully protest is essential to maintaining a healthy democratic society. What are you going to do if they ban wearing Abercrombie?...and then AE...and then the rest of the preppy shit you wear? What if they come for something you hold dear and you can't protest it?
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Intolerance of dissent, identification with property over people ... first signs that you're on a slippery slope to the high end of the f-scale.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I don't believe it is intolerance of dissent. Legitimate dissent is good, especially when the protestors have legitimate grieveances (yes, I know it's a subjective argument to determine what is "legitimate" or not but in most instances it's pretty clear) to bring to the froefront of attention. But mindless destruction of public property for anarchy's sake and for the thrill of it should be aggressively stamped out and those prosecuted (in a fair trial) to the full extent of the judicial process. There is room in this society for dissent and conflicting opinions. That doesn't give you or I the right to smash a garbage can through the window of some poor independent businessperson's workplace, thereby jeopardizing their income and family.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I don't believe it is intolerance of dissent. Legitimate dissent is good, especially when the protestors have legitimate grieveances (yes, I know it's a subjective argument to determine what is "legitimate" or not but in most instances it's pretty clear) to bring to the froefront of attention. But mindless destruction of public property for anarchy's sake and for the thrill of it should be aggressively stamped out and those prosecuted (in a fair trial) to the full extent of the judicial process. There is room in this society for dissent and conflicting opinions. That doesn't give you or I the right to smash a garbage can through the window of some poor independent businessperson's workplace, thereby jeopardizing their income and family.
I heard they smashed the windows of an Hbc store. If the target doesn't make sense to you, don't blame the protesters.

As for the petit bourgeois ... play me that violin some more.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I'm more surprised that they were intelligent enough to read a map to find the store in the first place, let alone get dressed in the morning.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I don't believe it is intolerance of dissent. Legitimate dissent is good, especially when the protestors have legitimate grieveances (yes, I know it's a subjective argument to determine what is "legitimate" or not but in most instances it's pretty clear) to bring to the froefront of attention.

That's the issue, whether you believe in it or not, it's legitimate dissent as long as it's done properly and peacefully. Take the Tea Party protests for instance. I think they're all loony, but I would pick up a gun and go to war this afternoon to protect their right to have their loony protests.

But mindless destruction of public property for anarchy's sake and for the thrill of it should be aggressively stamped out and those prosecuted (in a fair trial) to the full extent of the judicial process.

Absolutely, they do nothing but damage the image of protesting. However, this is where we have to look at the role that agent provocateurs play. If the first person throwing a rock at riot police is a AP, and the riot police get violent as a reaction...and then property damage occurs, it's hard to blame to protesters.

I bring that up because in Seattle it's been alleged that a group of face masked and hooded guys wearing black that none of the regular protest groups were familiar with, touched off the violence and were responsible for a large part of the property damage. If they were a moron anarchy group, then obviously it's on them...but if they were AP's...well, it changes things quite a bit, no?

There is room in this society for dissent and conflicting opinions. That doesn't give you or I the right to smash a garbage can through the window of some poor independent businessperson's workplace, thereby jeopardizing their income and family.

No, of course not, but it's exactly why the thought of government agents infiltrating a protest is so insidious. Whether it's 1 of 10, 1 of 100 or 1 of 1000, it should simply never happen.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I heard they smashed the windows of an Hbc store. If the target doesn't make sense to you, don't blame the protesters.

I don't understand the significance of the target either, but damaging private property isn't legitimate dissent.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Well obviously I think that most of us would agree that the notion of a police officer or other law enforcement official going undercover to act as a provocateur is absolutely ludicrous and if true would completely undermine the credibility of the police force.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

You might be shocked to find out how often the violence in these types of protests are started by the police.

It's like the old story about a crowd of teachers or peaceniks carrying placards charging and attacking a group of mounted police. I've got some property in a swamp you might like ...
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Well obviously I think that most of us would agree that the notion of a police officer or other law enforcement official going undercover to act as a provocateur is absolutely ludicrous and if true would completely undermine the credibility of the police force.

Like I said, happened in Quebec a few years ago. Why Quebec is so significant is that one of the protest leaders caught the guys just as they were about to start throwing rocks at the riot police. It brings into question the incidents that led to protest conflicts with riot police in recent history.

A British MP claimed to have seen AP's starting the violence at the G20 recently

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/10/g20-policing-agent-provacateurs


and those are two incidents out of a fairly small number of major meetings recently.

It should scare the shit out of anyone who loves living in a free society.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Except for KB, who would prefer to live in a fascist state over one where he has the freedom to protest and assemble.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Except for KB, who would prefer to live in a fascist state over one where he has the freedom to protest and assemble.
Nobody. But if a group of people is breaking windows and vandalizing property, while trying to pass that off as non-violent protest, then I would expect them to be hauled off to jail. And take a police baton to the head if they resist arrest.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I don't and have never supported these Olympic protests. I think they're idiotic. But I do strongly support the right to protest. Also agree that if they break reasonable laws and resort to violence, they should be prosecuted. There may be situations where violence may be acceptable (say, in Iran), but that is certainly not the case in Canada.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Violent protest should be limited to revolution....if you're not willing to start a revolution over the item you're protesting, but the ****ing garbage can down.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Is breaking property "violence"?

Is this the same as, say, dropping a bomb on a civilian target?
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

Yes it is violence. No it is not violent in the same way dropping a bomb is.

If I pimp slapped someone, I'm being violent. If I murdered him and his entire family with a grapefruit spoon, that's also violent.

Yet they are not the same thing, a funny language English can be.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

It's not simply language.

There is an important qualitative difference between breaking a window and punching someone in the face that is entirely erased by calling them both violence. It's a conceptual failure, not one of language. The latter merely expresses the conceptual laziness.
 
Re: OT - The News Thread

I see your point.

I guess the problem is that technically, both are correct usages of the word. One is just an understated use of the word.
 
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