OT: World Politics
- Thread starter zeke
- Start date
manny
Well-known member
Similar to the “democracy not dictatorship” flags I saw people carrying at a recent protest downtown. Just proclaiming that they do not know the meaning of words.
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the FINAL SOLUTION comment.
A 20 day old article has real foresight in the Israeli-Palestinian question.
Andrew Bacevich
——————————————
The question one has to ask is: where is Israel headed? I think that we’re going to end up with a Greater Israel, which means an Israel that controls both Gaza and the West Bank. I agree with Andy that hardly anybody believes that a two-state solution is possible anymore. When you look at all the settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, it’s hard to see how it’s possible to create a viable Palestinian state. But more importantly, the political center of gravity in Israel is moving to the right, and therefore you don’t have any real constituency in Israel that supports creating a viable Palestinian state on Israel’s borders. That means you’re going to have a Greater Israel, which is going to be an apartheid state. In fact, more and more people are saying just that. Israeli leaders have been saying it for a long time—Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert, both former Israeli prime ministers, have said that if you don’t get a two-state solution and you end up with a Greater Israel it will be an apartheid state. Kerry has said this, as has Obama.
So that’s where we’re headed. This is going to be a huge problem for Israel, and for the United States as well, because we are joined at the hip with Israel. What Israel does and how Israel evolves matters greatly for America’s reputation. This is why President Obama, and President George W. Bush before him, and President Clinton before him, went to great lengths to get a two-state solution. They all understood that it was in the American national interest. They also felt it was in Israel’s national interest, which I think is correct. But all three of them failed; indeed they never even came close to getting an agreement, and at this point there’s virtually no hope. So, as far as relations between Israel and the United States are concerned, things are pretty much going to stay the same for the foreseeable future, which is bad news for both countries.
More
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/...rsheimer-welcome-to-greater-israel-apartheid/
Interesting video on the page.
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the FINAL SOLUTION comment.
Worth reading the whole link.
***************************
What Does Israel Expect?
Israel is convinced greater levels of violence will finally crush Palestinian aspirations; it is mistaken.
By Chris Hedges
The indiscriminate shootings of Israelis by Hamas and other Palestinian resistance organizations, the kidnapping of civilians, the barrage of rockets into Israel, drone attacks on a variety of targets from tanks to automated machine gun nests, are the familiar language of the Israeli occupier. Israel has spoken this blood-soaked language of violence to the Palestinians since Zionist militias seized more than 78% of historic Palestine, destroyed some 530 Palestinian villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in more than 70 massacres. Some 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed between 1947 and 1949 to create the state of Israel in 1948.
Israel’s response to these armed incursions will be a genocidal assault on Gaza. Israel will kill dozens of Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Hundreds of Palestinians have already died in Israel air assaults since the launch of “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” on Saturday morning, which left 700 Israelis dead.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned Palestinians in Gaza on Sunday to “leave now,” because Israel is going to “turn all Hamas hiding places into rubble.”
But where are Palestinians in Gaza supposed to go? Israel and Egypt blockade the land borders. There is no exit by air or sea, which are controlled by Israel.
The collective retribution against innocents is a familiar tactic employed by colonial rulers. We used it against Native Americans and later in the Philippines and Vietnam. The Germans used it against the Herero and Namaqua in Namibia. The British in Kenya and Malaya. The Nazis used it in the areas they occupied in the Soviet Union, Eastern, and Central Europe. Israel follows the same playbook. Death for death. Atrocity for atrocity. But it is always the occupier who initiates this macabre dance and trades piles of corpses for higher piles of corpses.
This is not to defend the war crimes by either side. It is not to rejoice in the attacks. I have seen enough violence in the Israeli occupied territories, where I covered the conflict for seven years, to loathe violence. But this is the familiar denouement to all settler-colonial projects. Regimes implanted and maintained by violence engender violence. The Haitian war of liberation. The Mau Mau in Kenya. The African National Congress in South Africa. These uprisings do not always succeed, but they follow familiar patterns. The Palestinians, like all colonized people, have a right to armed resistance under international law.
Israel never had any interest in an equitable settlement with the Palestinians. It built an apartheid state and has steadily absorbed larger and larger tracts of Palestinian land in a slow motion campaign of ethnic cleansing. It turned Gaza in 2007 into the world’s largest open air prison.
What does Israel, or the world community, expect? How can you trap 2.3 million people in Gaza, half of whom are unemployed, in one of the most densely populated spots on the planet for 16 years; reduce the lives of its residents, half of whom are children, to a subsistence level; deprive them of basic medical supplies, food, water, and electricity; use attack aircraft, artillery, mechanized units, missiles, naval guns, and infantry units to randomly slaughter unarmed civilians and not expect a violent response? Israel is currently carrying out waves of aerial assaults on Gaza, preparing a ground invasion and has cut the power to Gaza, which usually only operates two to four hours per day.
More
https://informationclearinghouse.blog/2023/10/11/what-does-israel-expect/
Worth reading the whole link.
***************************
What Does Israel Expect?
Israel is convinced greater levels of violence will finally crush Palestinian aspirations; it is mistaken.
By Chris Hedges
The indiscriminate shootings of Israelis by Hamas and other Palestinian resistance organizations, the kidnapping of civilians, the barrage of rockets into Israel, drone attacks on a variety of targets from tanks to automated machine gun nests, are the familiar language of the Israeli occupier. Israel has spoken this blood-soaked language of violence to the Palestinians since Zionist militias seized more than 78% of historic Palestine, destroyed some 530 Palestinian villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in more than 70 massacres. Some 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed between 1947 and 1949 to create the state of Israel in 1948.
Israel’s response to these armed incursions will be a genocidal assault on Gaza. Israel will kill dozens of Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Hundreds of Palestinians have already died in Israel air assaults since the launch of “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” on Saturday morning, which left 700 Israelis dead.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned Palestinians in Gaza on Sunday to “leave now,” because Israel is going to “turn all Hamas hiding places into rubble.”
But where are Palestinians in Gaza supposed to go? Israel and Egypt blockade the land borders. There is no exit by air or sea, which are controlled by Israel.
The collective retribution against innocents is a familiar tactic employed by colonial rulers. We used it against Native Americans and later in the Philippines and Vietnam. The Germans used it against the Herero and Namaqua in Namibia. The British in Kenya and Malaya. The Nazis used it in the areas they occupied in the Soviet Union, Eastern, and Central Europe. Israel follows the same playbook. Death for death. Atrocity for atrocity. But it is always the occupier who initiates this macabre dance and trades piles of corpses for higher piles of corpses.
This is not to defend the war crimes by either side. It is not to rejoice in the attacks. I have seen enough violence in the Israeli occupied territories, where I covered the conflict for seven years, to loathe violence. But this is the familiar denouement to all settler-colonial projects. Regimes implanted and maintained by violence engender violence. The Haitian war of liberation. The Mau Mau in Kenya. The African National Congress in South Africa. These uprisings do not always succeed, but they follow familiar patterns. The Palestinians, like all colonized people, have a right to armed resistance under international law.
Israel never had any interest in an equitable settlement with the Palestinians. It built an apartheid state and has steadily absorbed larger and larger tracts of Palestinian land in a slow motion campaign of ethnic cleansing. It turned Gaza in 2007 into the world’s largest open air prison.
What does Israel, or the world community, expect? How can you trap 2.3 million people in Gaza, half of whom are unemployed, in one of the most densely populated spots on the planet for 16 years; reduce the lives of its residents, half of whom are children, to a subsistence level; deprive them of basic medical supplies, food, water, and electricity; use attack aircraft, artillery, mechanized units, missiles, naval guns, and infantry units to randomly slaughter unarmed civilians and not expect a violent response? Israel is currently carrying out waves of aerial assaults on Gaza, preparing a ground invasion and has cut the power to Gaza, which usually only operates two to four hours per day.
More
https://informationclearinghouse.blog/2023/10/11/what-does-israel-expect/
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the DINAL SOLUTION comment.
Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American activist and diarist.[1][2] A member of the pro-Palestinian group International Solidarity Movement (ISM),[3] she was crushed to death by an armored bulldozer of the Israel Defense Forces in a southern Gaza Strip combat zone during the height of the Second Intifada under contested circumstances.
Amoured Caterpillar D-9 Bull dozers flatten US Citizen.
…….
The Observer suggested that because Corrie was American her death attracted more attention than the deaths of Palestinians under similar circumstances: "On the night of Corrie's death, nine Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, among them a four-year-old girl and a man aged 90. A total of 220 people have died in Rafah since the beginning of the intifada. Palestinians know the death of one American receives more attention than the killing of hundreds of Muslims."
Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American activist and diarist.[1][2] A member of the pro-Palestinian group International Solidarity Movement (ISM),[3] she was crushed to death by an armored bulldozer of the Israel Defense Forces in a southern Gaza Strip combat zone during the height of the Second Intifada under contested circumstances.
Amoured Caterpillar D-9 Bull dozers flatten US Citizen.
…….
The Observer suggested that because Corrie was American her death attracted more attention than the deaths of Palestinians under similar circumstances: "On the night of Corrie's death, nine Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, among them a four-year-old girl and a man aged 90. A total of 220 people have died in Rafah since the beginning of the intifada. Palestinians know the death of one American receives more attention than the killing of hundreds of Muslims."
Rachel Corrie - Wikipedia
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the FINAL SOLUTION comment
So a bit more of Palestine has slidden down the plughole. A thousand more acres of Palestinian land stolen by the Israeli government – for “appropriation” is theft, is it not? – and the world has made the usual excuses. The Americans found it “counter-productive” to peace, which is probably a bit less forceful than its reaction would be if Mexico were to bite off a 1,000-acre chunk of Texas and decided to build homes there for its illegal immigrants in the US. But this is “Palestine” (inverted commas more necessary than ever) and Israel has been getting away with theft, albeit not on quite this scale – it is the biggest land heist in 30 years – ever since it signed up to the Oslo agreement in 1993.
The Rabin-Arafat handshake, the promises and handovers of territory and military withdrawals, and the determination to leave everything important (Jerusalem, refugees, the right of return) to the end, until everyone trusted each other so much that the whole thing would be a doddle – no wonder the world bestowed its financial generosity upon the pair. But this latest land-grab not only reduces “Palestine” but continues the circle of concrete around Jerusalem to cut Palestinians off from both the capital they are supposed to share with Israelis and from Bethlehem.
It was instructive to learn the Israeli-Jewish Etzion council regarded this larceny as punishment for the murder of three Israeli teenagers in June. “The goal of the murders of those three youths was to sow fear among us, to disrupt our daily lives and to call into doubt our right [sic] to the land,” the Etzion council announced. “Our response is to strengthen settlement.” This must be the first time that land in “Palestine” has been acquired not through excuses about security or land deeds – or on God’s personal authority – but out of revenge.
And it raises an interesting precedent. If an innocent Israeli life – cruelly taken – is worth around 330 acres of land, then an innocent Palestinian life – equally cruelly taken – must surely equal the same. And if even half the 2,200 Palestinian dead of Gaza last month – and this is a conservative figure – were innocent, then the Palestinians presumably now have the right to take over 330,000 acres of Israeli land, in reality much more. But however “counter-productive” this might be, I’m sure America would not stand for it. Israel takes land, Palestinians lose land; that’s the way it works. And thus it has been since 1948, and that is how it will continue.
There will never be a “Palestine” and the latest territorial robbery is merely another small punctuation mark in the book of sorrow which the Palestinians must read as their dreams of statehood wither. Nabil Abu Rudeineh, the spokesman for the Palestinian “President”, Mahmoud Abbas, said his boss and the “moderate forces” in Palestine had been “stabbed in the back” by the Israeli decision, which is putting it mildly. Abbas has a back covered in knife wounds. What else did he expect when he wrote a book about Palestinian-Israeli relations without once using the word “occupation”?
more
www.independent.co.uk
So a bit more of Palestine has slidden down the plughole. A thousand more acres of Palestinian land stolen by the Israeli government – for “appropriation” is theft, is it not? – and the world has made the usual excuses. The Americans found it “counter-productive” to peace, which is probably a bit less forceful than its reaction would be if Mexico were to bite off a 1,000-acre chunk of Texas and decided to build homes there for its illegal immigrants in the US. But this is “Palestine” (inverted commas more necessary than ever) and Israel has been getting away with theft, albeit not on quite this scale – it is the biggest land heist in 30 years – ever since it signed up to the Oslo agreement in 1993.
The Rabin-Arafat handshake, the promises and handovers of territory and military withdrawals, and the determination to leave everything important (Jerusalem, refugees, the right of return) to the end, until everyone trusted each other so much that the whole thing would be a doddle – no wonder the world bestowed its financial generosity upon the pair. But this latest land-grab not only reduces “Palestine” but continues the circle of concrete around Jerusalem to cut Palestinians off from both the capital they are supposed to share with Israelis and from Bethlehem.
It was instructive to learn the Israeli-Jewish Etzion council regarded this larceny as punishment for the murder of three Israeli teenagers in June. “The goal of the murders of those three youths was to sow fear among us, to disrupt our daily lives and to call into doubt our right [sic] to the land,” the Etzion council announced. “Our response is to strengthen settlement.” This must be the first time that land in “Palestine” has been acquired not through excuses about security or land deeds – or on God’s personal authority – but out of revenge.
And it raises an interesting precedent. If an innocent Israeli life – cruelly taken – is worth around 330 acres of land, then an innocent Palestinian life – equally cruelly taken – must surely equal the same. And if even half the 2,200 Palestinian dead of Gaza last month – and this is a conservative figure – were innocent, then the Palestinians presumably now have the right to take over 330,000 acres of Israeli land, in reality much more. But however “counter-productive” this might be, I’m sure America would not stand for it. Israel takes land, Palestinians lose land; that’s the way it works. And thus it has been since 1948, and that is how it will continue.
There will never be a “Palestine” and the latest territorial robbery is merely another small punctuation mark in the book of sorrow which the Palestinians must read as their dreams of statehood wither. Nabil Abu Rudeineh, the spokesman for the Palestinian “President”, Mahmoud Abbas, said his boss and the “moderate forces” in Palestine had been “stabbed in the back” by the Israeli decision, which is putting it mildly. Abbas has a back covered in knife wounds. What else did he expect when he wrote a book about Palestinian-Israeli relations without once using the word “occupation”?
more
Israelâs âland for livesâ is theft. Pure and simple
World View: Israel takes land, Palestine loses land; that’s the way it works
www.independent.co.uk
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I said the FINAL SOLUTION comment.
The law that gave parts of Palestine to Israel in 1948 was based on a 2 state solution.
The Balfour Declaration in 1917 between Great Britain via Lord Rothschild was an agreement for British support in attaining this objective.
America agreed to enter WW1 to support this zionist movement.
Palestine got the shaft and so it remains to this day.
The intended boundaries of Palestine were not specified, and the British government later confirmed that the words "in Palestine" meant that the Jewish national home was not intended to cover all of Palestine. The second half of the declaration was added to satisfy opponents of the policy, who had claimed that it would otherwise prejudice the position of the local population of Palestine and encourage antisemitismworldwide by "stamping the Jews as strangers in their native lands". The declaration called for safeguarding the civil and religious rights for the Palestinian Arabs, who composed the vast majority of the local population, and also the rights and political status of the Jewish communities in other countries outside of Palestine. The British government acknowledged in 1939 that the local population's views should have been taken into account, and recognised in 2017 that the declaration should have called for the protection of the Palestinian Arabs' political rights.
The declaration had many long-lasting consequences. It greatly increased popular support for Zionismwithin Jewish communities worldwide, and became a core component of the British Mandate for Palestine, the founding document of Mandatory Palestine. It indirectly led to the emergence of Israel and is considered a principal cause of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, often described as the world's most intractable conflict. Controversy remains over a number of areas, such as whether the declaration contradicted earlier promises the British made to the Sharif of Mecca in the McMahon–Hussein correspondence.
The law that gave parts of Palestine to Israel in 1948 was based on a 2 state solution.
The Balfour Declaration in 1917 between Great Britain via Lord Rothschild was an agreement for British support in attaining this objective.
America agreed to enter WW1 to support this zionist movement.
Palestine got the shaft and so it remains to this day.
The intended boundaries of Palestine were not specified, and the British government later confirmed that the words "in Palestine" meant that the Jewish national home was not intended to cover all of Palestine. The second half of the declaration was added to satisfy opponents of the policy, who had claimed that it would otherwise prejudice the position of the local population of Palestine and encourage antisemitismworldwide by "stamping the Jews as strangers in their native lands". The declaration called for safeguarding the civil and religious rights for the Palestinian Arabs, who composed the vast majority of the local population, and also the rights and political status of the Jewish communities in other countries outside of Palestine. The British government acknowledged in 1939 that the local population's views should have been taken into account, and recognised in 2017 that the declaration should have called for the protection of the Palestinian Arabs' political rights.
The declaration had many long-lasting consequences. It greatly increased popular support for Zionismwithin Jewish communities worldwide, and became a core component of the British Mandate for Palestine, the founding document of Mandatory Palestine. It indirectly led to the emergence of Israel and is considered a principal cause of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, often described as the world's most intractable conflict. Controversy remains over a number of areas, such as whether the declaration contradicted earlier promises the British made to the Sharif of Mecca in the McMahon–Hussein correspondence.
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the FINAL SOLUTION comment.
During the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against the Mandatory Palestine, the militant Zionist group Irgun carried out 60 attacks against Palestinian people and the British Army.[1] Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times,[2][3] the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry,[4] prominent world figures such as Winston Churchill[5] and Jewish figures such as Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[6] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes it as "an underground organizatin."[7] The New York Times at the time cited sources in an investigative piece whichlinked the Haganah paramilitary group to Irgun attacks such as the King David Hotel bombing.
Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the founding of Israel. All told, Irgun attacks against Arab targets resulted in at least 250 Arab deaths during this period. The following is a list of attacks resulting in death attributed to Irgun that took place during the 1930s and 1940s. Irgun conducted at least 60 operations altogether during this period.
During the Arab revolt (1937–1939)
Further information: 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
During the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against the Mandatory Palestine, the militant Zionist group Irgun carried out 60 attacks against Palestinian people and the British Army.[1] Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times,[2][3] the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry,[4] prominent world figures such as Winston Churchill[5] and Jewish figures such as Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[6] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes it as "an underground organizatin."[7] The New York Times at the time cited sources in an investigative piece whichlinked the Haganah paramilitary group to Irgun attacks such as the King David Hotel bombing.
Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the founding of Israel. All told, Irgun attacks against Arab targets resulted in at least 250 Arab deaths during this period. The following is a list of attacks resulting in death attributed to Irgun that took place during the 1930s and 1940s. Irgun conducted at least 60 operations altogether during this period.
During the Arab revolt (1937–1939)
Further information: 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine
| Date | Casualties | References |
| 1937, March | 2 Arabs killed on Bat Yam beach. | [12] |
| 1937, November 14 | 10 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday") | [13][14] |
| 1938, April 12 | 2 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa. | [14] |
| 1938, April 17 | 1 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa | [14] |
| 1938, May 17 | 1 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebronroad. | [14] |
| 1938, May 24 | 3 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa. | [14] |
| 1938, June 19 | 18 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa. | [15][16][17][18] |
| 1938, June 23 | 2 Arabs were killed near Tel Aviv. | [14] |
| 1938, June 26 | 7 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa. | [14] |
| 1938, June 27 | 1 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa. | [14] |
| 1938, July 5 | 7 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel Aviv. | [14] |
| 1938, July 5 | 3 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1938, July 5 | 1 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1938, July 6 | 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. More than 60 people were wounded. The toll over two days of riots and reprisals was 33 dead, 111 wounded. | [14][19][20][21] |
| 1938, July 8 | 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1938, July 16 | 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1938, July 25 | 43 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. | [14][22] |
| 1938, August 26 | 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. | [14] |
| 1939, February 27 | 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem. | [23] |
| 1939, May 29 | 18 people were injured, including 13 Arabs and three British police, by mines detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem. | [24] |
| 1939, May 29 | 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas. | [14] |
| 1939, June 2 | 5 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem. | [14][25] |
| 1939, June 12 | 1 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing | [14] |
| 1939, June 16 | 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1939, June 19 | 20 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa. | [14][26] |
| 1939, June 29 | 13 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period. | [14][27] |
| 1939, June 30 | 1 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1939, June 30 | 2 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta. | [14] |
| 1939, July 3 | 1 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. | [14][28] |
| 1939, July 4 | 2 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem. | [14] |
| 1939, July 20 | 1 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa. | [14] |
| 1939, July 20 | 6 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel Aviv. | [14] |
| 1939, July 20 | 3 Arabs were killed in Rehovot. | [14] |
| 1939, August 26 | 2 British police officers including Ralph Cairns were killed by a roadside bomb in Jerusalem |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the FINAL SOLUTION comment.
(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.
(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.”
www.theguardian.com
Osama explains, back in 2002.
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.
(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.”
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'
Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", which first appeared on the internet in Arabic and which has since been circulated by Islamists in Britain.
LeafGm
Well-known member
@KiwiCanuck
Ever give any consideration to just coming right out and plainly explaining what your opinions are, and what your specific point is, instead of just spamming the thread with articles and then running off?
Ever give any consideration to just coming right out and plainly explaining what your opinions are, and what your specific point is, instead of just spamming the thread with articles and then running off?
KiwiCanuck
Active member
Why I made the FINAL SOLUTION comment.
The Palestinian National Authority (PA or PNA; Arabic: السلطة الوطنية الفلسطينية as-Sulṭa al-Waṭanīya al-Filasṭīnīya), commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine,[5] is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over West Bank areas "A" and "B"as a consequence of the 1993–1995 Oslo Accords.[1][6][7] The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflictbetween the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control. Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nations continues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people".[8]
The Palestinian Authority was formed in 1994, pursuant to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement between the PLO and the government of Israel, and was intended to be a five-year interim body. Further negotiations were then meant to take place between the two parties regarding its final status. According to the Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority was designated to have exclusive control over both security-related and civilian issues in Palestinian urban areas (referred to as "Area A") and only civilian control over Palestinian rural areas ("Area B"). The remainder of the territories, including Israeli settlements, the Jordan Valley region and bypass roads between Palestiniancommunities, were to remain under Israeli control ("Area C"). East Jerusalem was excluded from the Accords. Negotiations with several Israeli governments had resulted in the Authority gaining further control of some areas, but control was then lost in some areas when the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) retook several strategic positions during the Second ("Al-Aqsa") Intifada. In 2005, after the Second Intifada, Israel withdrew unilaterally from its settlements in the Gaza Strip, thereby expanding Palestinian Authority control to the entire strip[9]while Israel continued to control the crossing points, airspace, and the waters of the Gaza Strip's coast.[10]
In the Palestinian legislative elections on 25 January 2006, Hamas emerged victorious and nominated Ismail Haniyeh as the Authority's Prime Minister. However, the national unity Palestinian government effectively collapsed, when a violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah erupted, mainly in the Gaza Strip. After the Gaza Strip was taken over by Hamas on 14 June 2007, the Authority's Chairman Mahmoud Abbasdismissed the Hamas-led unity government and appointed Salam Fayyad as Prime Minister, dismissing Haniyeh. The move wasn't recognized by Hamas, thus resulting in two separate administrations – the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and a rival Hamas government in the Gaza Strip. The reconciliation process to unite the Palestinian governments achieved some progress over the years, but had failed to produce a re-unification.
The Palestinian Authority received financial assistance from the European Union and the United States (approximately US$1 billion combined in 2005). All direct aid was suspended on 7 April 2006, as a result of the Hamas victory in parliamentary elections.[11][12] Shortly thereafter, aid payments resumed, but were channeled directly to the offices of Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.[13] Since 9 January 2009, when Mahmoud Abbas' term as president was supposed to have ended and elections were to have been called, Hamas supporters and many in the Gaza Strip have withdrawn recognition for his presidency and instead consider Aziz Dweik, the speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, to be the acting president until new elections can be held.[14][15]
The State of Palestine has become recognized by 138 nations and since November 2012, the United Nationsvoted to recognize the State of Palestine as a non-member UN observer state.[16][17][18] The Palestinian Authority is an authoritarian regime that has not held elections in over 15 years; it has been criticized for human rights abuses, including cracking down on journalists, human rights activists, and dissent against its rule.[19]
The Palestinian National Authority (PA or PNA; Arabic: السلطة الوطنية الفلسطينية as-Sulṭa al-Waṭanīya al-Filasṭīnīya), commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine,[5] is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over West Bank areas "A" and "B"as a consequence of the 1993–1995 Oslo Accords.[1][6][7] The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflictbetween the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control. Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nations continues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people".[8]
The Palestinian Authority was formed in 1994, pursuant to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement between the PLO and the government of Israel, and was intended to be a five-year interim body. Further negotiations were then meant to take place between the two parties regarding its final status. According to the Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority was designated to have exclusive control over both security-related and civilian issues in Palestinian urban areas (referred to as "Area A") and only civilian control over Palestinian rural areas ("Area B"). The remainder of the territories, including Israeli settlements, the Jordan Valley region and bypass roads between Palestiniancommunities, were to remain under Israeli control ("Area C"). East Jerusalem was excluded from the Accords. Negotiations with several Israeli governments had resulted in the Authority gaining further control of some areas, but control was then lost in some areas when the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) retook several strategic positions during the Second ("Al-Aqsa") Intifada. In 2005, after the Second Intifada, Israel withdrew unilaterally from its settlements in the Gaza Strip, thereby expanding Palestinian Authority control to the entire strip[9]while Israel continued to control the crossing points, airspace, and the waters of the Gaza Strip's coast.[10]
In the Palestinian legislative elections on 25 January 2006, Hamas emerged victorious and nominated Ismail Haniyeh as the Authority's Prime Minister. However, the national unity Palestinian government effectively collapsed, when a violent conflict between Hamas and Fatah erupted, mainly in the Gaza Strip. After the Gaza Strip was taken over by Hamas on 14 June 2007, the Authority's Chairman Mahmoud Abbasdismissed the Hamas-led unity government and appointed Salam Fayyad as Prime Minister, dismissing Haniyeh. The move wasn't recognized by Hamas, thus resulting in two separate administrations – the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and a rival Hamas government in the Gaza Strip. The reconciliation process to unite the Palestinian governments achieved some progress over the years, but had failed to produce a re-unification.
The Palestinian Authority received financial assistance from the European Union and the United States (approximately US$1 billion combined in 2005). All direct aid was suspended on 7 April 2006, as a result of the Hamas victory in parliamentary elections.[11][12] Shortly thereafter, aid payments resumed, but were channeled directly to the offices of Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.[13] Since 9 January 2009, when Mahmoud Abbas' term as president was supposed to have ended and elections were to have been called, Hamas supporters and many in the Gaza Strip have withdrawn recognition for his presidency and instead consider Aziz Dweik, the speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, to be the acting president until new elections can be held.[14][15]
The State of Palestine has become recognized by 138 nations and since November 2012, the United Nationsvoted to recognize the State of Palestine as a non-member UN observer state.[16][17][18] The Palestinian Authority is an authoritarian regime that has not held elections in over 15 years; it has been criticized for human rights abuses, including cracking down on journalists, human rights activists, and dissent against its rule.[19]
Oslo Accords - Wikipedia
leafman101
Well-known member
The osama letter is a nice touch.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
It’s very tough to decipher, even after citing such notables as Osama Bin Fucking Laden.
That one won me over, I don’t know about the rest of you.
LeafGm
Well-known member
I honestly didn’t even get that far in terms of looking at any of his articles.
This style of posting always blows my mind. Similar to what we saw with guys like BeLeafer or WingedWheel. They’ll only coyly hint at what their shitty opinions are, while steadfastly refusing to honestly and plainly state them or engage in a discussion.
Then they bury you in a pile of garbage articles or YouTube links and expect that people will take the time to actually wade through it all when they’ve done absolutely nothing to demonstrate they’re someone worth taking seriously.
KiwiCanuck
Active member
The point with Osama creating 911 was because of Israels treatment of Palestinians, and using US military forces in Mecca.
My basic belief is Israel is USAs attack dog in the Middle East to keep control of “FREEDOM JUICE.(oil).
Im 16 hours of Eastern Standard time.
Ive got to go out and take care of business.
I shall return and continue this conversation, if I haven’t been ex- communicated.
My basic belief is Israel is USAs attack dog in the Middle East to keep control of “FREEDOM JUICE.(oil).
Im 16 hours of Eastern Standard time.
Ive got to go out and take care of business.
I shall return and continue this conversation, if I haven’t been ex- communicated.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
I don't think he's being very coy though.
He may as well change his avatar to the Chicago BLM logo posterizing the terrorist paraglider.
Montana
Champion
I only bring this up because it was in the Shin Bet doc I watched last night, and was shocked when this scene came up… I’m not sure if it’s any better or worse to be indoctrinated to scream “With Blood & Fire, we’ll throw Rabin out!”…but I’m guessing they’d have also been taught some pretty hateful anti-Palestinian stuff as well.
…then when looking for an isolated clip of the above, this comes up…
I don’t post any of that to imply it’s all the same (those Palestinians were talking about learning it IN school)…..but only to show the far-right has some pretty sick zealots of their own, willing to teach their own kid some hateful shit.
Montana
Champion
Montana
Champion
While I get what she’s saying, and would agree with it completely at various times through history where I think non-retaliation could have gotten them through the peace process….to the point of then having Palestinian forces & intelligence on their side to pound Hamas.
….but in this instance as fucked as it is, i think civilian casualties are acceptable collateral if you have good intelligence that you can take out key cogs in Hamas & military installations that greatly reduce the risk of more attacks in the short term.
