The 2019-2020 MotherFucking Season Thread

[MindzEye]

when I said extremes, I was referring to him saying that since he wasn’t provided a name(s), he instantly assumed people could only mean gritty players who can’t play the game.... not really fair now is it?

What you need to understand here is that this line of argument you're bringing isn't remotely new on the interwebs and you align damn near perfectly with it (whether you've formed it there or not). My opinion on the quality of that side of the argument has been refined by a long time reading and discussing hockey on the internet, and in my opinion, the "grit" crowd doesn't like to name names. Because when they do, they talk about guys like Max Domi being "physical". Fighting once or twice a year doesn't make you "physical" or "gritty".

Fwiw, I didn't consider Kadri physical either when he was here. Guys like Schenn and Domi are physical in the same way Naz is, if that.

 

[TinCow]

Anderson is trash, Domi isn't physical (he'll punch a face once in a while, but that's about it), Ritchie...fair enough if fringe 3rd liners are what moves the needle here (he's basically a slightly better Clifford), and Schenn...fair enough I guess. He's more in the Naz Kadri category of "physical" imo though.

So I guess that's where I struggle with the examples people come up with here. I don't think any of those guys are the type that scares other teams, or changes the dynamic of your team unless if you have a bucket of them, in which case your team is probably shit because it's devoted way too much money to truculence and not nearly enough to skill.

I mean, if we put all 4 of those guys on the same forward group (Domi-Schenn as your 1-2 centres...), it's not looking like a very good forward group (without a significant injection of skill) but would probably cost you ~18 million next year regardless.

well of course faults can be found in any player if you are nit picking..... but I have clearly shown I am not talking all star unobtainable kind of players here.

Im not saying they need to be scary or sending players to the hospital every night with body checks..... just some schitt disturbing arseholes that can distract other teams from their game plan every now and then.

 

[Preston]

I'm with Dubas. My idea of physicality is being "hard." Bergeron, O'Reilly, Crosby etc. That's the kind of hardness that I do agree that the Leafs need more of. It has nothing to do with throwing body checks at mother fucking all.

While I'm not expecting any of them to reach new heights in terms of goals and points I do expect a guy like Matthews to develop more of that "hardness". He has already made huge strides this year. Nylander can be hard on his best days too. Hyman is the king of it. They need more though.

 

[Neurospasm]

If Kapanen plays like he has the last couple games he’s another that plays hard for us.

 

[Preston]

If Kapanen plays like he has the last couple games he’s another that plays hard for us.

Yeah and I love willy but I adore "hard" willy. He's capable of it. Needs more consistency though. Hyman is clearly their top guy in that regard.... Honestly a lot of the comes down to old man strength. As I said players plateau at around 23-24 in terms of points but I do see development elsewhere in their games as they get a bit older. It may just take patience.

 

[TinCow]

What you need to understand here is that this line of argument you're bringing isn't remotely new on the interwebs and you align damn near perfectly with it (whether you've formed it there or not). My opinion on the quality of that side of the argument has been refined by a long time reading and discussing hockey on the internet, and in my opinion, the "grit" crowd doesn't like to name names. Because when they do, they talk about guys like Max Domi being "physical". Fighting once or twice a year doesn't make you "physical" or "gritty".

Fwiw, I didn't consider Kadri physical either when he was here. Guys like Schenn and Domi are physical in the same way Naz is, if that.

I guess I just feel aligning yourself with one side or the other means you are closing your eyes and ears to something that could be useful.

Also I’m not suggesting Max Domi’s style of grit is fighting and crushing guys..... he is an agitating arsehole (who I would play as a winger)

Maybe don’t lump me in with this “moar grit” crowd you have been debating with that feel “grit that can’t play the game” is what this team needs..... cause I am dead set against that route myself.

 

[MindzEye]

well of course faults can be found in any player if you are nit picking..... but I have clearly shown I am not talking all star unobtainable kind of players here.

I never suggested that they were all unobtainable. I suggested that the good ones were unobtainable. The rest were either shit (Anderson, Ritchie) or not really what people claim them to be (Schenn, Domi).

Im not saying they need to be scary or sending players to the hospital every night with body checks..... just some schitt disturbing arseholes that can distract other teams from their game plan every now and then.

We had that guy, and he kept getting suspended when we needed him. We just added one in Clifford and he seems to be magnetically attracted to taking stupid penalties (2 of which have ended up in our net, not bad for 9 games work). I'm having a hard time finding the utility in guys running around trying to distract the other teams with gritty play.

 

[MindzEye]

I guess I just feel aligning yourself with one side or the other means you are closing your eyes and ears to something that could be useful.

Oh, I'm completely open to the usefulness of a guy like Tom Wilson. Someone who is legitimately terrifying/devastating physically, but is skilled enough to put in your top 6. That is the kind of a guy who can legitimately change a game with physicality.

Also I’m not suggesting Max Domi’s style of grit is fighting and crushing guys..... he is an agitating arsehole (who I would play as a winger)

and yeah, I just don't see the value in those guys for the most part. They tend to develop a reputation with referees, tend to not be able to draw penalties and tend to get them dished out quickly.

Maybe don’t lump me in with this “moar grit” crowd you have been debating with that feel “grit that can’t play the game” is what this team needs..... cause I am dead set against that route myself.

I'll try not to. But in fairness, when I asked for examples you named two guys who are kind of shit, and two guys who are neither large nor physical.

 

[TinCow]

I never suggested that they were all unobtainable. I suggested that the good ones were unobtainable. The rest were either shit (Anderson, Ritchie) or not really what people claim them to be (Schenn, Domi).



We had that guy, and he kept getting suspended when we needed him. We just added one in Clifford and he seems to be magnetically attracted to taking stupid penalties (2 of which have ended up in our net, not bad for 9 games work). I'm having a hard time finding the utility in guys running around trying to distract the other teams with gritty play.

Are you debating right now with someone who claimed Domi and Schenn are something they are not?

Side note.... I disagree with u on Anderson and Ritchie (although Ritchie is more of a 2nd/3rd line tweener)

 

[MindzEye]

I guess the best way to sum up what I think of it all is this....if you manage to come across a bit of size, strength, and crazy as part of your draft and develop (for example, we never expected Naz to be an agitating mental case at the draft table, he was picked up for his skill), fine. But don't pay for it. Would you trade Montreal's price for Max Domi today?

 

[MindzEye]

Are you debating right now with someone who claimed Domi and Schenn are something they are not?

You held them up as an example of grit, physicality, etc.

Side note.... I disagree with u on Anderson and Ritchie (although Ritchie is more of a 2nd/3rd line tweener)

Disagree away. Anderson has been on of the worst regulars in the league this season, and Nick Ritchie costs his team more with his stupidity than anything else. He's the worst in the league in penalty diff this season, and was bottom 5 last season. Over the last 2 seasons (with this one not complete yet) he's a -43 in minor penalties draw vs taken. Anaheim has a PK of about 78.5% over the last 2 seasons. That mean's Ritchie has cost Anaheim 9 goals over the last 2 season. He's scored 14 over that period. Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree if you think that's remotely useful to a hockey team.

 

[TinCow]

I'll try not to. But in fairness, when I asked for examples you named two guys who are kind of shit, and two guys who are neither large nor physical.

I think that shows that you shouldn’t just assume what someone means when such a vague word like “grit” is used.

You will notice that you didn’t even ask for my definition of “grit” before assuming I meant players who can’t even play the sport.

 

[TinCow]

I guess the best way to sum up what I think of it all is this....if you manage to come across a bit of size, strength, and crazy as part of your draft and develop (for example, we never expected Naz to be an agitating mental case at the draft table, he was picked up for his skill), fine. But don't pay for it. Would you trade Montreal's price for Max Domi today?

What’s Montreal’s asking price for Domi?

 

[MindzEye]

What’s Montreal’s asking price for Domi?

Would have to assume it's significant no? He's their #1 centre. I don't think we're "Johnsson + Dermott" territory here. You'd have to figure that their ask would be similar to the stupid asks (Dumba), we've heard recently. So Nylander. Or Sandin plus a bunch of stuff.

 

[MindzEye]

I think that shows that you shouldn’t just assume what someone means when such a vague word like “grit” is used.

You will notice that you didn’t even ask for my definition of “grit” before assuming I meant players who can’t even play the sport.

And when I did, you kind of responded with the same names I've seen before...so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

 

[TinCow]

Would have to assume it's significant no? He's their #1 centre. I don't think we're "Johnsson + Dermott" territory here. You'd have to figure that their ask would be similar to the stupid asks (Dumba), we've heard recently. So Nylander. Or Sandin plus a bunch of stuff.

I thought They had been using Danault as the FLC this season.

 

[worm]

What’s Montreal’s asking price for Domi?

Domi is not good

he had a lucky shooter percentage last year but is a second line winger now

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

Outside of the Tkachuks and Wilson i dont think there any of the Cam Neely types that everyone jerks off to in the league anymore. These fake ones like Nick Ritchie abd Wayne Simmonds with a walker cost their teams more than anything else but the mediots reach for the lotion all the same.

Im not going to defend how the Leafs have played but there is an obvious bias from the talking heads in the game today. Most of the ex players calling Leaf games today ( Carlo, ODOG) seem to neither know what it is they are watching other than these lazy kids making more today than when they did. Im here all day for Kevin Bieksa and Mike Johnson to get bigger voices as they can at minimum break down the game.

The true enemies though are these outdated shitty ex execs like Poulin and Button who i legit bet could not explain anything to do with analytics other than they ate bad and their Champion, Dubas is awful and keeping their existence is keeping them out of FO gigs. How else can they legit go on for hours about subjective reasons ( shittake opinions) about their struggles like effort, attention to detail, drive, blah blah gud pro, heavy cock hockey. Not even saying some of that isnt true but to not even mention 800 sv% is madness. Some of these cliwns would trade Nylander for a facepuncher and long stick and think Carey Price is untouchable for the wrong reasons

These voices lead to Mike from Buffalo on the FAN and LOF on FI reaching some god awful takes and creating the most nauseating fan base in the league ( 05 is a special case of depressochist who wants high fives for being right about disasters)

 

[TinCow]

Domi is not good

he had a lucky shooter percentage last year but is a second line winger now

I would take the chance....his offence wouldn’t be the #1 reason I would get him anyway but, in the Leafs top 6, I think he would get his points.

Domi Tavares Nylander

 

[zeke]

Danault > domi