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The Lineup Going Forward

BeLeafer said:
Assuming no trades, based on what you've seen in the preseason thus far, what line up would you like to see for the start of the season (not to predict what Babs will do)?
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If I'm going with purely what I'd like to see on opening night, at this point, I'd go with:

Josh Leivo - Auston Matthews - William Nylander
Patrick Marleau - Nazem Kadri - Connor Brown
James van Riemsdyk - Tyler Bozak - Mitch Marner
Zach Hyman - Leo Komarov - Kasperi Kapanen
(Martin, Moore)

Jake Gardiner - Nikita Zaitsev
Morgan Rielly - Ron Hainsey
Travis Dermott - Calle Rosen
(Carrick)

Frederik Andersen
(Curtis McElhinney)


Still some tough calls in a few spots, though. For the fourth line center spot, I haven't really made up my mind yet. Nobody's really stepped forward and grabbed a hold of it yet. So, why not just put Komarov into the position if it lets you slide one of Kapanen or Leivo into the lineup? Moore would still be useful to have on hand as an extra, and you'd rather have Aaltonen getting playing time in the AHL than sitting on the bench.

On defense, it's tough picking between Dermott, Borgman & Rosen. I love Borgman's game, but at this point, Dermott & Rosen get the nod from me because they look like they have more polished games. And Carrick is a victim of the numbers game. He hasn't looked bad, but he hasn't really demonstrated he's on the verge of taking any great step forward, and the three other young defensemen are all looking ready to pass him on the depth chart.
 
You guys both put Leivo on the top line and kept the Bozak line intact.

I can't see how the Leafs can keep running the JVR-Bozak combo out there again this season. They are a tire fire defensively. Why not put a guy with a strong defensive game in place of JVR? Then the question is where to put JVR? He's never had good chemistry with Kadri. The Leafs need to move him in a trade. Playing with the two headed beast would almost certainly inflate his numbers to at or near ppg.
 
BeLeafer said:
You guys both put Leivo on the top line and kept the Bozak line intact.

I can't see how the Leafs can keep running the JVR-Bozak combo out there again this season. They are a tire fire defensively. Why not put a guy with a strong defensive game in place of JVR? Then the question is where to put JVR? He's never had good chemistry with Kadri. The Leafs need to move him in a trade. Playing with the two headed beast would almost certainly inflate his numbers to at or near ppg.
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Agreeed. That's specifically why in my lineup proposal JVR moves with Matthews and Marleau moves to the Bozak line
 
BeLeafer said:
You guys both put Leivo on the top line and kept the Bozak line intact.

I can't see how the Leafs can keep running the JVR-Bozak combo out there again this season. They are a tire fire defensively. Why not put a guy with a strong defensive game in place of JVR? Then the question is where to put JVR? He's never had good chemistry with Kadri.
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The way I placed Leivo & JVR in my lineup comes down to a couple of factors.

As far as JVR is concerned, I don't really see how a non-physical, shoot-first winger is a great fit for Matthews and Nylander. He's also obviously not a fit for Kadri's wing, if Babcock intends to continue using it as a matchup line.

So, that leaves the Bozak line, pretty much by default. And whether your goal is pumping up trade values or winning games, I don't think that objective will be hurt by placing JVR back on a unit that combined for 49 goals & 120 points at even strength last year, and I think you can live with whatever defensive warts they might have.

As far as Leivo is concerned, he seems to have the makings of a strong possession player who can be a pain in the ass to deal with along the boards due to his size and skill. And if Matthews or Willy put the puck on his stick in a good spot, he's got the shot to finish. So I'd be really intrigued to see him with those two.


The Leafs need to move him in a trade. Playing with the two headed beast would almost certainly inflate his numbers to at or near ppg.
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I disagree that we need to move him.

This isn't a basement-dwelling, rebuilding team with no real use for a 30/30 forward on an expiring contract. This is a team that could easily be a dark horse Cup contender if a few things break their way this season. So, I essentially just look at JVR as a very good rental that we didn't have to trade for.

Now, you could make the argument that we've got some capable young kids that could step into JVR's place and be pretty solid NHLers---Leivo & Kapanen, in particular. But I don't think any of those internal options will score 30 goals and/or 60 points.

So, I'd rather just keep JVR and see how far this team can run, personally. Unless some team steps up with a truly obscene offer for him (so, not the usual 1st round pick + OK prospect type of offer), or if someone offers us something for JVR that makes us a better team in the here and now (and it's unlikely any contender looking to rent him would want to do that).
 
The time to trade JVR was 12 months ago. If the player we want to add to the core wasn't available then, he's not going to be available now. I'm definitely on team punt regarding JVR, but not for a 26th overall and random B prospect when we're looking ready to take a step up and join the best teams in the east. 12 months ago, taking a step backwards to take two forward was acceptable. Today it isn't. Roll with that we've got, re evaluate next June after we see how deep in the playoffs we got. Avoid a long term Oshie type contract to JVR like the plague. I'd consider bringing Bozak back for a couple years though. He's rounded out his game a bit under Babcock and until Kappy, Grundstrom, whoever show themselves to be a legit top 6 winger, I'd prefer to not replace JVR and Bozak in the same year. Especially not while Marleau is taking up a solid chunk of cap space.
 
MindzEye said:
The time to trade JVR was 12 months ago. If the player we want to add to the core wasn't available then, he's not going to be available now. I'm definitely on team punt regarding JVR, but not for a 26th overall and random B prospect when we're looking ready to take a step up and join the best teams in the east. 12 months ago, taking a step backwards to take two forward was acceptable. Today it isn't. Roll with that we've got, re evaluate next June after we see how deep in the playoffs we got. Avoid a long term Oshie type contract to JVR like the plague. I'd consider bringing Bozak back for a couple years though. He's rounded out his game a bit under Babcock and until Kappy, Grundstrom, whoever show themselves to be a legit top 6 winger, I'd prefer to not replace JVR and Bozak in the same year. Especially not while Marleau is taking up a solid chunk of cap space.
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Yup. As much as losing JVR for nothing seems sucky, he's more valuable on the roster than as a trade asset at this time. I mean if someone offers a piece that could be part of our core moving forward you make the deal, but I think you can just hold for now.
 
Yeah, moving JVR now as a rental doesn't make sense unless we are out of it, or if we can pry a good righty vet dman out of somewhere.

But realistically you are getting a Lucic/Kessel type deal at this point, which could turn out good in 3-4 years. Or you can take the 30 goals and 60 points and try to take advantage of having three cheap, elite players and win.
 
BeLeafer said:
iu
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Just posting BL’s reply to all this on his behalf.
 
zeke said:
I think maybe we underrate the jvr/bozak combo.
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They have stretches where they're fine (like when they try) but too many long bouts of floating around (especially JVR). Could change for JVR, as it's a big contract year.
 
LeafGm said:
The way I placed Leivo & JVR in my lineup comes down to a couple of factors.

As far as JVR is concerned, I don't really see how a non-physical, shoot-first winger is a great fit for Matthews and Nylander. He's also obviously not a fit for Kadri's wing, if Babcock intends to continue using it as a matchup line
.
So, that leaves the Bozak line, pretty much by default.
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That's fair. It would lead me to think about finding a defensively adept RW for them though. Maybe it will be different in a contract year but JVR floats way too much and Bozak still has his moments as well and is good for at least one crazy blueline cross ice pass a game.


I disagree that we need to move him.

This isn't a basement-dwelling, rebuilding team with no real use for a 30/30 forward on an expiring contract. This is a team that could easily be a dark horse Cup contender if a few things break their way this season. So, I essentially just look at JVR as a very good rental that we didn't have to trade for.

Now, you could make the argument that we've got some capable young kids that could step into JVR's place and be pretty solid NHLers---Leivo & Kapanen, in particular. But I don't think any of those internal options will score 30 goals and/or 60 points.

So, I'd rather just keep JVR and see how far this team can run, personally. Unless some team steps up with a truly obscene offer for him (so, not the usual 1st round pick + OK prospect type of offer), or if someone offers us something for JVR that makes us a better team in the here and now (and it's unlikely any contender looking to rent him would want to do that).
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When Leivo is staring at another year of scratches or waivers, you need to move someone from the wing. JVR is the most easily replaceable. Doubtful anyone is going to get 30/60 as a replacement, but there would be upgrades in other dimensions of his game. I'm pretty sure this is why they signed Marleau. I suspect his ultimate destination is with Bozak and Marner.

Someone will get stupid eventually. It's the way of NHL GMs, especially when it comes to goalscoring.

You could trade Leivo but he'd be undervalued relative to his potential after a year or two of regular NHL ice time. Komarov is another option but I'm not too keen on trading him.
 
BeLeafer said:
JVR - Matthews - Nylander
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Komarov - Bozak - Marner
Leivo - Fehr - Hyman
(Martin)

Gardiner - Zaitsev
Rielly - Hainsey
Dermott - Rosen
(Carrick)

Anderson
McElhinney

Once JVR is traded, bring in Kapanen.
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The only change I'd make to this line up would be Dermott-Carrick rather than Dermott-Rosen.
 
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