2020-21 Season and Draft Discussion

[Habsy]

Who gives a shit? Just because an owner users a high pick to grab a stud goalie doesn't mean he should be penalized. Not every owner gets a McDavid or Matthews. So "for the rest" they should reduce assists and goals.

Its not a valid argument. Fix the scoring. You can't penalize one position because only a handful of players can benefit.

 

[fergy57]

Well that statement implies that the goalie scoring is broken, which it really isn't.

But as thunder said earlier, any changes should be made in the off-season. plenty of time to discuss, but this isn't really an issue that's going to break the league if it isn't addressed immediately.

 

[Habsy]

It's not right to handicap a certain position. Trying to justify it doesn't make it anymore so. Had I noticed that before I most definitely would have been brought up. It needs fixed imo.

 

[Thunder]

Phillip Grubauer and John Gibson are currently ranked 5th and 6th in the league for Total FPts.

About the same amount of total FPts as Quinn Hughes, the best defenseman in our league.
Less than 0.5 total FPts than 3rd best player Mitchell Marner.

Grubauer also has about 1.75 FPts less than Connor McDavid.
Are we looking to make Grubauer equal or better than McDavid ?




Now the current rankings by FPts per game.

5 goalies in the Top 6.
9 goalies in the Top 12.

8 goalies with better FPts per game than McDavid.

First impression is that goaltenders don't seem to be handicaped or penalised in any way.

 

[Habsy]

You don't penalize a player for playing well by arbitrarily picking .939. So a goalie plays out of his mind which will happen and will effect games and he should be what? Muzzled? What would you call limiting great play? Its penalizing. Comparing them to guests is comparing apples to oranges. Some owners strategy is to have to goalies and that causes them to miss out on top skaters. You're essentially limiting a build strategy, arbitrarily.

Nope. If this isn't fixed by next year I'm out. Not spending money on arbitrary bullshit.

 

[Habsy]

View attachment 8214

Phillip Grubauer and John Gibson are currently ranked 5th and 6th in the league for Total FPts.

About the same amount of total FPts as Quinn Hughes, the best defenseman in our league.
Less than 0.5 total FPts than 3rd best player Mitchell Marner.

Grubauer also has about 1.75 FPts less than Connor McDavid.
Are we looking to make Grubauer equal or better than McDavid ?


View attachment 8215

Now the current rankings by FPts per game.

5 goalies in the Top 6.
9 goalies in the Top 12.

8 goalies with better FPts per game than McDavid.

First impression is that goaltenders don't seem to be handicaped or penalised in any way.

Goalie is by far the most important position and can effect a game more than any other position. This needs to be part of your strategy and not dumbed down for convenience.

 

[Thunder]

Goalie is by far the most important position and can effect a game more than any other positron. This needs to be part of your strategy and not dumbed down for convenience.

I am not disagreeing with you.

I think it is a fair point that goaltender is the most important position.
Working from that perspective, it would make sense to want the best goaltender in a fantasy league to rank number 1 fantasy asset yearly.

The way to achieve that would need to be analysed.
I don't think goalies not having a bonus from 0.939 means that they are "penalised."
Sure it's an arbitrary number, but any number would be arbitrary...
Do we set another level of bonus at 0.959 or 0.969 ? An extra one at 0.989 after that or not ?

Currently the goaltender's "next bonus" is a shutout.
Would a goaltender getting a bonus at 0.989 plus a bonus at a shutout throw everything out of wack and have the goaltender be ranked number 1 by a ridiculous amout of points instead of number 1 by a fair margin ?

Was that the assesment that was made re adding another bonus after 0.939 plus the shutout bonus ?

 

[axlsalinger]

You don't penalize a player for playing well by arbitrarily picking .939. So a goalie plays out of his mind which will happen and will effect games and he should be what? Muzzled?

Nope. If this isn't fixed by next year I'm out. Not spending money on arbitrary bullshit.

You're being ridiculous. We are telling you that A LOT of work went into the creation of this scoring system. To make it as fair and realistic as possible at rewarding the best players at each position.

And I can also tell you that more time was spent tweaking the Goalie position than any other, so that they didn't get over or undervalued.

Nitpicking on this one point is what is arbitrary.

 

[Habsy]

That's fine. Find a new owner for next season. It's arbitrary to me. You don't say a player can only benefit 95% of his production while others don't simply by position. If that was the case goals should be called at 40. Yeah lets do that. Or 39. Arbitrary enough.

The reason goalies are "overvalued" (in your opinion mind you) is that they effect the game more than any other position. You guys just don't want it to be so hence, arbitrary.

 

[axlsalinger]

Maybe stop freaking out while we try and figure it out? We have to change the scoring by 2:00pm or you're out? 2:30 is too late? I'm trying to get a hold of the people who created the scoring system to see if they remember what the reasoning was, or if it was just a mistake. I can't even finish typing the pm without you threatening to quit.

If there's no reason for it we can change it for next season, but it will throw things out of whack (see Grubauer scoring) so we will probably need to adjust the whole scoring system.

Which we can do. I'm just not going to do it in the next 5 minutes because it would make absolutely no sense to do that.

 

[Habsy]

I am not disagreeing with you.

I think it is a fair point that goaltender is the most important position.
Working from that perspective, it would make sense to want the best goaltender in a fantasy league to rank number 1 fantasy asset yearly.

The way to achieve that would need to be analysed.
I don't think goalies not having a bonus from 0.939 means that they are "penalised."
Sure it's an arbitrary number, but any number would be arbitrary...
Do we set another level of bonus at 0.959 or 0.969 ? An extra one at 0.989 after that or not ?

Currently the goaltender's "next bonus" is a shutout.
Would a goaltender getting a bonus at 0.989 plus a bonus at a shutout throw everything out of wack and have the goaltender be ranked number 1 by a ridiculous amout of points instead of number 1 by a fair margin ?

Was that the assesment that was made re adding another bonus after 0.939 plus the shutout bonus ?

How are they not being penalized? A goalie gets .939 and a bonus. Another goalie plays better and gets a..960 without a SO and gets nothing? Just bullshit.

Look, if that's how the majority wants it fine, use it. I won't play under that. I spent capital on goalies and had a game plan. Now I know why they underperformed in the league. You guys think Forwards should be more valuable. News flash, they're not in real hockey.

 

[Habsy]

Maybe stop freaking out while we try and figure it out? We have to change the scoring by 2:00pm or you're out? 2:30 is too late? I'm trying to get a hold of the people who created the scoring system to see if they remember what the reasoning was, or if it was just a mistake. I can't even finish typing the pm without you threatening to quit.

If there's no reason for it we can change it for next season, but it will throw things out of whack (see Grubauer scoring) so we will probably need to adjust the whole scoring system.

Which we can do. I'm just not going to do it in the next 5 minutes because it would make absolutely no sense to do that.

I'm not freaking out at all. There's no tone of voice. I'm perfectly fine if you guys want to hamstring goalies, I just won't waste my money or time on it. Read this in a perfectly calm tone please because that's where I'm at with it.

 

[axlsalinger]

I am open to changing the scoring if it was a mistake. Just adding extra points will likely throw the whole thing out of whack, though, so we just need to proceed carefully, that's all.

 

[Habsy]

Look no further than last night. Allen gets a .969 with no shutout or win but doesn't get credit for a phenomenal game. If he shits the bed with a 700 next game he'll be negative. So there's no limit on being shit but there is on being great. Get it?

 

[Habsy]

I am open to changing the scoring if it was a mistake. Just adding extra points will likely throw the whole thing out of whack, though, so we just need to proceed carefully, that's all.

Why? Because people rigged the league more towards skaters? Think about it.

I agree it should be done thoughtfully. That said it needs to be done.

 

[fergy57]

But should it not be done in the offseason, or are you arguing for an in season change?

 

[axlsalinger]

Why? Because people rigged the league more towards skaters? Think about it.

I agree it should be done thoughtfully. That said it needs to be done.

It was not "rigged" towards skaters. In fact, it's the opposite as more time was spent on goalies than the other positions. Also just so you understand hockey better, Philip Grubauer is not as valuable or as good as Connor McDavid.

Looking at last year's scoring, 10 of the top 15 leaders in Points-Per-Game were goalies. Now that includes a couple of anomalies like Anthony Stolarz, but overall top goalies are rewarded. In total points though, they are down the list a bit because goalies only play 55-60 games and skaters play 82. Does this mean they should get a boost? I'm not sure. We can definitely discuss it.

 

[Thunder]

How are they not being penalized? A goalie gets .939 and a bonus. Another goalie plays better and gets a..960 without a SO and gets nothing? Just bullshit.

Look, if that's how the majority wants it fine, use it. I won't play under that. I spent capital on goalies and had a game plan. Now I know why they underperformed in the league. You guys think Forwards should be more valuable. News flash, they're not in real hockey.

I don't know what I want.
I'm open to debates and changes, and more importantly to truly understand what it is we are talking about and all the implications of any proposed change.

I don't know the exact meaning of the difference between a 0.939 and a 0.960 save % in real life, or in fantasy hockey.
I don't know how much better it is, how often it happens, how many shots it takes to make the difference, and how that value should be transfered to fantasy.

I'm looking to understand it though.
I went and looked on the numbers because I wanted to understand what's happening.
I didn't really take position, just that on first impression goalies seems to do pretty well.

And about the penalised thing, maybe it's my definition of the word.
To me a penalty is like losing a faceoff, you get minus something, penalised.
Not getting a potential arbitrary bonus does not feel like a penalty to me.
I'm not attached to my opinion and would gladly like to understand why it should be seen as a penalty.

I'd also very much like to see data showing how much better is a 0.960% than a 0.939%.
In the same order of idea, why choose 0.960 instead of 0.970, etc

 

[axlsalinger]

Look no further than last night. Allen gets a .969 with no shutout or win but doesn't get credit for a phenomenal game. If he shits the bed with a 700 next game he'll be negative. So there's no limit on being shit but there is on being great. Get it?

On Saturday January 30, Jake Allen scored 2.22 points in a game where he did not get the win (this league does not give out points for wins because that is arbitrary).

by comparison, Alexsander Barkov got 2.03 points last night for 1 goal, 1 assist, (1 PPG), 5 sog, 2 hits, 1 block, 12-9 in faceoffs, and 23:38 in ice-time.

 

[Habsy]

A player that had a shit game gets minused heavily, it's happened to us all. That same player turns around and has a great game and has his points limited. This is only done to goalies hence yes, the league is rigged towards skaters to "compensate" for comparing apples to oranges. A vezina caliber goalie is worth every bit a Connor McDavid, maybe even more.

The issue is ideology apparently. Some of you grossly underestimate a goalies worth and importance imo. Because of this ideological divide, I'm just not interested. No threat no nothing. There's plenty in life that you have no interest for, this is one of mine.