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2020-21 Season and Draft Discussion

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axlsalinger said:
On Saturday January 30, Jake Allen scored 2.22 points in a game where he did not get the win (this league does not give out points for wins because that is arbitrary).

by comparison, Alexsander Barkov got 2.02 points last night for 1 goal, 1 assist, 5 sog, assorted other stats and 23:38 in ice-time.
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And I'd argue that a 969 with over 30 shots thrown at him is much much harder than 1g 1a and should give the goalie more than .2 better in points..2 is 2 sog for a skater. Two.

Like I said, difference in opinion.
 
Thunder said:
I don't know what I want.
I'm open to debates and changes, and more importantly to truly understand what it is we are talking about and all the implications of any proposed change.

I don't know the exact meaning of the difference between a 0.939 and a 0.960 save % in real life, or in fantasy hockey.
I don't know how much better it is, how often it happens, how many shots it takes to make the difference, and how that value should be transfered to fantasy.

I'm looking to understand it though.
I went and looked on the numbers because I wanted to understand what's happening.
I didn't really take position, just that on first impression goalies seems to do pretty well.

And about the penalised thing, maybe it's my definition of the word.
To me a penalty is like losing a faceoff, you get minus something, penalised.
Not getting a potential arbitrary bonus does not feel like a penalty to me.
I'm not attached to my opinion and would gladly like to understand why it should be seen as a penalty.

I'd also very much like to see data showing how much better is a 0.960% than a 0.939%.
In the same order of idea, why choose 0.960 instead of 0.970, etc
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In a nutshell the scoring system is trying to equate a top goalie with a top forward. Top goalies are worth more in the game of hockey. A single forward rarely steals a series, a hot goalie does. He shouldn't be penalized for it. Like I said, it's a legitimate build strategy that is being handicapped. Now I know why many don't bother using high picks on goalies. With the handicap a top five goalie isn't much better than a decent goalie as is evidenced by the amount of goalies atop the fpts list. The move isn't to handicap the top goalies for it, the move is to understand that those top goalies deserve more points than middling ones. What this does is bring the star goalies back to the pack. This doesn't occur for skaters.
 
Also, why are goalie starts limited to six a week when they play four games a week? It's to limit the value of a goalie already so if we're doing that (which I'm fine with either way really) then why further handcuff them at 940?

Food for thought. You guys decide. I've already made up my mind. See what the majority want.
 
Totals
1.77STL 6
@ ANA 1 F		10123.958000
1.33NYI 2
@ PHI 3 F(OT)		10226.929000


From last night, 1st player is Jordan Binnington. 2nd player is Carter Hart.

Hart made 3 more saves, but gave up 1 extra goal. Now looking at the issue in question, Hart theoretically received a bonus for his save % of .929, and Binnington did not for his .958.

But Binnington outscored him 1.77 to 1.33. Hart's extra goal against was -0.55, so if he had made that save he'd have scored 1.88.

So if we extended the top save % bonus from .939 to .999, that gives Binnington a little boost so they'd be pretty close to equal. That doesn't seem unreasonable, but math is not my strong suit.

As I have said repeatedly, I am not against fixing this if it was a simple mistake, I just want to be 100% certain we aren't fucking anything up by doing so.

Also, this league has a max # of GP by goalies of 90, put in place to prevent goalie hoarding. The rule about 6 starts per week is from the other league.
 
Habsy said:
How are they not being penalized? A goalie gets .939 and a bonus. Another goalie plays better and gets a..960 without a SO and gets nothing? Just bullshit.

Look, if that's how the majority wants it fine, use it. I won't play under that. I spent capital on goalies and had a game plan. Now I know why they underperformed in the league. You guys think Forwards should be more valuable. News flash, they're not in real hockey.
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Just wanted to point out, i cant remember there ever being a goalie with a .960 save % in a game that also recorded a shut out :)
 
Habsy said:
In a nutshell the scoring system is trying to equate a top goalie with a top forward. Top goalies are worth more in the game of hockey. A single forward rarely steals a series, a hot goalie does. He shouldn't be penalized for it. Like I said, it's a legitimate build strategy that is being handicapped. Now I know why many don't bother using high picks on goalies. With the handicap a top five goalie isn't much better than a decent goalie as is evidenced by the amount of goalies atop the fpts list. The move isn't to handicap the top goalies for it, the move is to understand that those top goalies deserve more points than middling ones. What this does is bring the star goalies back to the pack. This doesn't occur for skaters.
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I guess if you were to break down the amount of fantasy points each team gets from their goaltending position, it probably equates to more fantasy points than they get from any single forward position.
 
fergy57 said:
I guess if you were to break down the amount of fantasy points each team gets from their goaltending position, it probably equates to more fantasy points than they get from any single forward position.
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No. You would find that elite forwards have more points than average goalies.

Like I said, people thinking that goalies shouldn't get more points than forwards are just being biased IMHO. The goalie is on the ice for 60 minutes unless pulled. The forwards 20? Yet the forwards deserve to be treated as more important?
 
Calculate Per Game, Cumulative:
From 0 to 1, award 0point(s) for every0.001SV%
From 0.9 to 0.909, award 0.003point(s) for every0.001SV%
From 0.91 to 0.919, award 0.004point(s) for every0.001SV%
From 0.92 to 0.929, award 0.005point(s) for every0.001SV%
From 0.93 to 0.939, award 0.006point(s) for every0.001SV%
Click to expand...

I'd like to hear back from someone who helped create the scoring system, just to see if they remember there being any reason for this or if it was just a mistake.

If just an oversight, we could consider adding:

From 0.940 to 0.999 award 0.007 points for every 0.001 SV%
 
I really understand this isn't an easy fix but there has to be a way to reward great goalie play without extending the bonus to weaker goalies.
 
axlsalinger said:
I'd like to hear back from someone who helped create the scoring system, just to see if they remember there being any reason for this or if it was just a mistake.

If just an oversight, we could consider adding:

From 0.940 to 0.999 award 0.007 points for every 0.001 SV%
Click to expand...
Here's what I would do. Lower the "bonus" for just good games and bump up the bonus for crazy great games. After thinking on this today the issue arises where your standard goalie is worth a much as an elite forward, he shouldn't. Fixing that shouldn't affect top end performances though. In trying to fix one, another problem was created. That's what I'm seeing anyway.
 
axlsalinger said:
I'd like to hear back from someone who helped create the scoring system, just to see if they remember there being any reason for this or if it was just a mistake.

If just an oversight, we could consider adding:

From 0.940 to 0.999 award 0.007 points for every 0.001 SV%
Click to expand...


Would be interesting to see how this affects the goalies numbers, but this would be an easy fix.
 
Last years top teams goaltending contributions:

1. Kritter- 91.29 fantasy points in 78 games (1.17 fp/g, .916 sv%)
2. GH- 48.92 fantasy points in 65 games (.75 fp/g, .890 sv% -oof)
3. Thunder- 83.99 fantasy points in 75 games (1.12 fp/g, .916 sv%)
4. Matrim- 81.24 fantasy points in 80 games (1.02 fp/g, .911 sv%)
5. Deckie- 99.4 fantasy points in 74 games (1.34 fp/g, .921 sv%)
6. Jonas- 98.52 fantasy points in 84 games (1.17 fp/g, .918 sv%)

Habsy- 83.83 fantasy points in 90 games (.93 fp/g, .904 sv%)


Look at the fantasy points per game and points generated from the position. It's fairly balanced. Could it be tweaked a bit, to fix that oversight. Probably. But it's not broken or punishing to people who choose to make goalies a priority. Quite the opposite, actually.
 
The system brings better goalies down to average goalies. By putting a proper bonus for stellar play you have a more consistent divide between the two. I'd rather have it lower all goalie points with a better bonus for great play. Especially sv%.

I'm well aware that it'll cost me with my goalies, it's the point system that matters.
 
Habsy said:
In trying to fix one, another problem was created.
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We've had a few issues come up in various leagues over the years, where this definitely happened, lol. That's why Deckie and I made the point that we don't like to fuck with Fantrax unless we have to. The controls can be tweaked in many different ways which makes it a great site, but the butterfly effect is a thing.

That being said, it doesn't make much sense why this "bonus" doesn't apply to save % over .939 so we should take this opportunity to fix it, hopefully get it right the 1st time to prevent future issues.
 
Habsy said:
The system brings better goalies down to average goalies. By putting a proper bonus for stellar play you have a more consistent divide between the two. I'd rather have it lower all goalie points with a better bonus for great play. Especially sv%.

I'm well aware that it'll cost me with my goalies, it's the point system that matters.
Click to expand...


It really doesn't. The scoring for sv % scales accordingly. You get less pts for lower sv % vs more for higher.

Adding in points to sv% above .940 will definitely reward goalies for stellar games.


For
.9-.909 you get .0207 fantasy points
.91-.919 you get .036 fantasy points
.92-0.929 you get 0.045 fantasy points
.93-.939 you get 0.054 fantasy points
0.94-1 you get up to 0.42 fantasy points (under axl's proposed .007)

Adding in that bonus is very significant and a bonus for stellar play.



Habsy said:
No. You would find that elite forwards have more points than average goalies.

Like I said, people thinking that goalies shouldn't get more points than forwards are just being biased IMHO. The goalie is on the ice for 60 minutes unless pulled. The forwards 20? Yet the forwards deserve to be treated as more important?
Click to expand...

I am leaving out a couple players that only played 1-10ish games, but here is the top fp/g players in the league last season:

1. Leon Drai- 1.56 fp/g
(111 fpts)

2. Tuukka Rask- 1.55 fp/g
(63 fpts)

3. McDavid- 1.48 fp/g
(95 fpts)

4. Shesterkin (barely over 10gp)- 1.48 fp/g
(17 fpts)

5. Kuemper- 1.45 fp/g
(42 fpts)

6. John Carlson- 1.44 fp/g
(99 fpts)

7. Elvis- 1.43 fp/g
(47 fpts)

8. Zibanejad- 1.43 fp/g
(81 fpts)

9. Khudobin- 1.42 fp/g
(42 fpts)

10. Allen- 1.41 fp/g
(33 fpts)

11. Hellebucyk- 1.4 fp/g
(81 fpts)


Fact is, the stats are very balanced. Aside from Top players in their respective positions, you will be getting your most efficient scoring from your goalies. Fixing the stat from .939 and above will only make goalies more valuable, while at the same time rewarding them for stellar performances. There most likely does not need to be any major change here, only a tweak.
 
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