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Core 4 No More: The Motherfucking Off-Season Thread

axlsalinger said:
It's still completely irrelevant. Nobody has ever signed a free agent contract with the benefit of hindsight, and in fact we all know FA prices are usually inflated for obvious reasons.

He had to be worth at least 9.5-10 in several of those years, and again, that extra milly is the cost of doing business. It's also partially justified that you don't have to give up assets to sign a free agent, as you would in a trade, so maybe it's worth that little bit of extra coin.

Whining about the first 5 years of JT is kind of wasted time IMO, but I do agree trading him right now (if it's possible) would be the right move.
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Agreed…..we did also get him for $2m less than the market was willing to pay him, too, and held our ground when his agent held up that other offer to try and get even more out of us.

Small hat tip to Dubas on that one…
 
Preston said:
This is what I thought at the time. But in hindsight I don't think he's all that unique. Yes, I have the benefit of hindsight. I was wrong at the time too.
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I’ve done too much coke to have any sort of worthwhile memory….who should we have paid say $10m x 7 to, that hit free agency over that span that would have realistically came here for that, and/or didn’t just resign with who they were with.

is there a few that instantly come to mind?
 
Montana said:
I’ve done too much coke to have any sort of worthwhile memory….who should we have paid say $10m x 7 to, that hit free agency over that span that would have realistically came here for that, and/or didn’t just resign with who they were with.

is there a few that instantly come to mind?
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They didn't have to spend it all in one place.

But we've seen like 7 #1/2 d get moved for almost nothing just in the last 3 or 4 years. Leafs couldn't do it largely because of how much they paid Tavares. That's where I would have allocated the money though. Someone like Lindholm or Ekholm. Then you keep Kadri as well or find another more cost effective option at the 2 hole. Tavares isn't the only center out there.

Of course I'm talking with the benefit of hindsight. I'm not claiming to be the best gm on the planet. I just think that with the benefit of hindsight it's fairly obvious that they did the wrong thing.
 
zeke said:
don't forget that when we signed him the general consensus was that he was better than Matthews, both in the fanbase and the coach.

He was never that level of player tho.
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I’d love to know what impact having a 2C the calibre of Tavares had on Matthews breaking out in the manner did, the second he landed here. (Not to mention Mitch).

I think they both helped Tavares age more gracefully than he would have with the Islanders….but curious how similarly or differently AM/MM progress if Kadri was the 2C the whole time.
 
Montana said:
I’d love to know what impact having a 2C the calibre of Tavares had on Matthews breaking out in the manner did, the second he landed here. (Not to mention Mitch).
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Tavares didn't help, he hurt, because Babs played Tavares as the #1C. It wasn't until Keefe got here and actually used Matthews as a star #1 that his counting stats turned as elite as his per/60 stats had always been.
 
Tavares getting spoonfed freebie points playing 5th fiddle on one of the most talented pp's in the league has certainly helped his counting stats stay relatively stable. Until this past year at least (where I actually think he got unlucky to not do a bit better, though again his pp time is the main driver of his counting states since his 5 on 5 scoring rates have been weak).
 
Montana said:
I’ve done too much coke to have any sort of worthwhile memory….who should we have paid say $10m x 7 to, that hit free agency over that span that would have realistically came here for that, and/or didn’t just resign with who they were with.

is there a few that instantly come to mind?
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I mean we've seen guys like ROR and Naz can offer comparable value to JT for a fraction of the price.

think of it this way... how many #2 Cs make more than $10 m annually?
 
Montana said:
I’d love to know what impact having a 2C the calibre of Tavares had on Matthews breaking out in the manner did, the second he landed here. (Not to mention Mitch).

I think they both helped Tavares age more gracefully than he would have with the Islanders….but curious how similarly or differently AM/MM progress if Kadri was the 2C the whole time.
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honestly I think it held matty back in the babs days. JT got ice time matty deserved cause veteran.
 
zeke said:
Tavares didn't help, he hurt, because Babs played Tavares as the #1C. It wasn't until Keefe got here and actually used Matthews as a star #1 that his counting stats turned as elite as his per/60 stats had always been.
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ah I see you beat me to it. on a real roll today (you are).
 
Preston said:
They didn't have to spend it all in one place.
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I said there aren’t many players like Tavares that hit the market as UFA tho….and you said you used to believe that but don’t anymore.

There isn’t one free agent in that time span tho that fits that criteria for you? That you’d have preferred paying $9-10m over 7 for?

Preston said:
But we've seen like 7 #1/2 d get moved for almost nothing just in the last 3 or 4 years. Leafs couldn't do it largely because of how much they paid Tavares. That's where I would have allocated the money though. Someone like Lindholm or Ekholm. Then you keep Kadri as well or find another more cost effective option at the 2 hole. Tavares isn't the only center out there.
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Lindholm also costs a first, two seconds, in addition to paying him $6.5m until he’s 36….and you gotta convince him to resign. But yeah, I wanted him too. (Also don’t necessarily think JT made getting him prohibitive tho either)

Would love to have landed Emholm too, and we did inquire on trading for him….but we didn’t offer what Edmonton did for whatever reason. Don’t think JT was why we didn’t acquire him tho.

Preston said:
Of course I'm talking with the benefit of hindsight. I'm not claiming to be the best gm on the planet. I just think that with the benefit of hindsight it's fairly obvious that they did the wrong thing.
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Everyone’s working on the benefit of hindsight ultimately and believing those funds would have been magically spent just flawlessly….just isn’t realistic tho.

Bad moves on the margins already screw us worse than the JT one does….can only imagine how bad it might have been, if we were splashing it on lesser players in free agency.

(but yes, also could have been better in theory if we thread the needle.)
 
hockeylover said:
I think we would've been better off keeping Kadri and not signing Tavares.

I think I defended both and will admit with hindsight to have been incorrect in the end, IMO.
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Imagine not having Tavares, and our GM/Shanny still feeling the need to trade Kadri because of those two suspensions..

The darkest of all timelines. 💀
 
Montana said:
I said there aren’t many players like Tavares that hit the market as UFA tho….and you said you used to believe that but don’t anymore.

There isn’t one free agent in that time span tho that fits that criteria for you? That you’d have preferred paying $9-10m over 7 for?



Lindholm also costs a first, two seconds, in addition to paying him $6.5m until he’s 36….and you gotta convince him to resign. But yeah, I wanted him too. (Also don’t necessarily think JT made getting him prohibitive tho either)

Would love to have landed Emholm too, and we did inquire on trading for him….but we didn’t offer what Edmonton did for whatever reason. Don’t think JT was why we didn’t acquire him tho.




Everyone’s working on the benefit of hindsight ultimately and believing those funds would have been magically spent just flawlessly….just isn’t realistic tho.

Bad moves on the margins already screw us worse than the JT one does….can only imagine how bad it might have been, if we were splashing it on lesser players in free agency.

(but yes, also could have been better in theory if we thread the needle.)
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It's simple really. You asked what they could have done if they didn't get Tavares. And my answer is that there were a lot of options. A whole world of opportunity and risks that they would have felt more comfortable taking without that cap burden on the books. The money could have been spent better elsewhere, full stop. Which is the whole point of team building in the NHL and how teams win cups. That's where I stand on it.

I believed one thing at the time, I think it would be stubborn to continue believing it when the data no longer backs up that opinion.
 
Tavares (by my pts/total cap calc):

18-19: $11.5
19-20: $8.5
20-21: $8.6
21-22: $8.2
22-23: $9.3
23-24: $8.2

Keep in mind that Tavares is a 30-40 goal threat, and that the going rate for a 30/60 player starts at $8mil in today's cap dollars.
 
BG said:
Tavares (by my pts/total cap calc):

18-19: $11.5
19-20: $8.5
20-21: $8.6
21-22: $8.2
22-23: $9.3
23-24: $8.2

Keep in mind that Tavares is a 30-40 goal threat, and that the going rate for a 30/60 player starts at $8mil in today's cap dollars.
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he had less than 30 last year while being spoon fed top PP time on a top-10 PP.

not sure he's the 30-goal guy he used to be anymore
 
zeke said:
Tavares didn't help, he hurt, because Babs played Tavares as the #1C. It wasn't until Keefe got here and actually used Matthews as a star #1 that his counting stats turned as elite as his per/60 stats had always been.
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don’t blame Tavares for Babcock….John also scored 37 ES goals that year, like c’mon.
 
We are also talking yesterday/today about good players that refuse to play here due to Canada/taxes/pressure.

Now talk about the guy who chose to come here and captain his hometown team.
 
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