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GDT - Return of Reim Take 2

Still can't believe how much skepticism there was about Marner coming into the season. So much talk about a nine-game "tryout", making him a frequent healthy scratch, loaning him out to the WJC and sending him back to London.

Too many people spouting off hot-takes without taking the time to watch the kid play, or put the numbers he's put up over the last two seasons into a historical context.
 
LeafGm said:
Still can't believe how much skepticism there was about Marner coming into the season. So much talk about a nine-game "tryout", making him a frequent healthy scratch, loaning him out to the WJC and sending him back to London.

Too many people spouting off hot-takes without taking the time to watch the kid play, or put the numbers he's put up over the last two seasons into a historical context.
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On HFboards there was also "Gagner 2.0" and "Product of Dvorak and Tkachuk".
 
hockeylover said:
On HFboards there was also "Gagner 2.0" and "Product of Dvorak and Tkachuk".
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Yeah, Gagner's always been a favourite comparison for Leaf haters or people with a size bias. Similar size as Marner, and one of few players to score at something approaching Marner's level in the OHL, and not really end up as an elite offensive producer in the NHL.

Of course, to make the comparison work you have to ignore that Marner was the best player on his line, while Gagner had two linemates better than him, including a current NHL superstar. But I guess that didn't really stop some people.

As for Marner being a product of his linemates....I do think Dvorak has a chance to be a quality NHLer, and Domi & Tkachuk could both be legit 1st-line talents in the NHL. But Marner was better than all of them in junior (especially if you stack his OHL seasons up with Domi & Dvorak's by age), and he's been a better NHLer so far too:

Mitch Marner: GP 17, G 7, A 9, Pts 16, 0.94 PPG
Max Domi: GP 96, G 19, A 44, Pts 63, 0.67 PPG
Matthew Tkachuk: GP 14, G 4, A 3, Pts 7, 0.50 PPG
Christian Dvorak: GP 12, G 1, A 4, Pts 5, 0.42 PPG
 
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People just didn't see Marner play enough.

The moment you actually see the kid play and do the things he can do its impossible to ignore how much better he is at hockey than almost everyone else. I don't even know how many Knights games I watched over the last couple of years just because Marner is so much fun to watch play. He does things that only a handful or so of players in the world can do.
 
There's still a bias against small players. The game is changing. If you can skate and find room it's golden. Big guys have to make their room.
And still hearing "Leafs Should Have Taken Hanifan" by the media is hilarious. Why don't people knock the real loser of the top 5: Arizona. Strome over Marner and Hanifan. Ouch. Strome does not have the skating ability to be a top line player.
But of course Arizona never gets criticism so it won't be mentioned.
 
JackBurton said:
There's still a bias against small players. The game is changing. If you can skate and find room it's golden. Big guys have to make their room.
And still hearing "Leafs Should Have Taken Hanifan" by the media is hilarious. Why don't people knock the real loser of the top 5: Arizona. Strome over Marner and Hanifan. Ouch. Strome does not have the skating ability to be a top line player.
But of course Arizona never gets criticism so it won't be mentioned.
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For a player that had so many "question marks" due to his size, I don't think he's had a single moment so far in nearly 20 games where I've even thought "yeah, there it is - he needs to get stronger".
 
It also depends on position I think. I think playing W is reducing the size factor to a minimum for Marner. If he is a D then it becomes a different story. I don't think you have to be 6'3 or 6'4 to play D, but you have to have some 'meat' and a 'thick body' to play D (which Marner doesn't).
 
JackBurton said:
There's still a bias against small players. The game is changing. If you can skate and find room it's golden. Big guys have to make their room.
And still hearing "Leafs Should Have Taken Hanifan" by the media is hilarious. Why don't people knock the real loser of the top 5: Arizona. Strome over Marner and Hanifan. Ouch. Strome does not have the skating ability to be a top line player.
But of course Arizona never gets criticism so it won't be mentioned.
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We're lucky that Don Maloney was still the Coyotes' GM, and that he was desperate for a big #1 center after spending most of the season expecting to land McDavid or Eichel, only to watch the Oilers knock them out of the top-2 in the draft lottery. If their current analytics-driven regime was in charge, they may have had less of a size & positional bias.

Now, it's a little early still to write off Strome. He could still be a very good player for them that'll just take longer to develop. But he's just not on Marner's level. It was almost embarrassing how much better Marner was when London & Erie went head-to-head in last year's OHL playoffs.

zeke said:
size seems to be becoming more of a liability than an asset.
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I wouldn't say that. Size can still be an asset, but it's pretty much irrelevant if you're not also a good skater these days.

There's just less and less place in the game anymore for the big, lumbering player who's strong & has good hands, but is an average-or-worse skater.
 
The most important skill sets in hockey today are skating, hockey IQ and work ethic. Everyone can skate, shoot and handle the puck and there is barely any room out there. Players separate themselves by buying time and space being quicker with their feet and their heads. And there is so much talent now, the best players only get there by working as hard or harder than everyone else.

Marner is elite in all three.
 
LeafGm said:
We're lucky that Don Maloney was still the Coyotes' GM, and that he was desperate for a big #1 center after spending most of the season expecting to land McDavid or Eichel, only to watch the Oilers knock them out of the top-2 in the draft lottery. If their current analytics-driven regime was in charge, they may have had less of a size & positional bias.

Now, it's a little early still to write off Strome. He could still be a very good player for them that'll just take longer to develop. But he's just not on Marner's level. It was almost embarrassing how much better Marner was when London & Erie went head-to-head in last year's OHL playoffs.


I wouldn't say that. Size can still be an asset, but it's pretty much irrelevant if you're not also a good skater these days.

There's just less and less place in the game anymore for the big, lumbering player who's strong & has good hands, but is an average-or-worse skater.
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well i've always been wary of the "great mobility.....FOR HIS SIZE" scouting report, and it seems to become clearer and clearer that that's not good enough.
 
Think everyone is jumping the gun on Strome here a bit. He's a big lanky kid who's 19 years old. These guys take longer to figure it out in the show.

Sergei Samsonov won the calder while rookie Joe Thornton put up a lowly 7 points.

Yes the game has changed and no Marner and Strome are not Samsonov and Thornton, but we haven't even hit the 20 game mark here. It's as bad as the constant "Is Laine better than Matthews?" "Is Marner better than Matthews?" after a few hot/cold games for each. I wouldn't change a thing and think Marner will be the better player, but Strome will be a good one and he plays the more valuable position.
 
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For me this has nothing to do with their first 15 games. Marner was clearly the better player as a 17 year old OHL prospect, and if anything he's only separated himself more in the last 2 years.

And I still see no reason why he can't be a center.
 
leafman101 said:
For me this has nothing to do with their first 15 games. Marner was clearly the better player as a 17 year old OHL prospect, and if anything he's only separated himself more in the last 2 years.

And I still see no reason why he can't be a center.
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Originally I wanted to see him develop as a center, but the more I watch him on the wing the more I think he should stay there.

You want that guy to be responsible defensively, but always thinking offense. His offensive game is that good. He's going to play like a center and control the play in the offensive zone anyway. I'd rather keep his defensive responsibilities limited, and also limit the physical beating he has to take in the defensive zone.
 
WellPlayed said:
Think everyone is jumping the gun on Strome here a bit. He's a big lanky kid who's 19 years old. These guys take longer to figure it out in the show.

Sergei Samsonov won the calder while rookie Joe Thornton put up a lowly 7 points.

Yes the game has changed and no Marner and Strome are not Samsonov and Thornton, but we haven't even hit the 20 game mark here. It's as bad as the constant "Is Laine better than Matthews?" "Is Marner better than Matthews?" after a few hot/cold games for each. I wouldn't change a thing and think Marner will be the better player, but Strome will be a good one and he plays the more valuable position.
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While I'm very confident that Marner has been and will continue to be the clearly better player, I'm not writing off Strome as a prospect by any means. I don't think it helps either that the Coyotes are handling him pretty badly this year. He's been a healthy scratch for more than half their games, his linemates have constantly been shifting and he often gets a pretty low number of minutes.

They need to either give him a real shot with steady linemates, ice-time & a defined role for a good stretch of games, or send him back to the OHL. And that wouldn't be a failure for him by any means. Not everyone is ready to play at 19 years of age.
 
I like Strome as a prospect but I was quite happy with our choice from Day 1 and see no reason to change my mind yet.


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It wasn't like I didn't like Strome, but I have this "big guy phobia" ... size is an asset, but it's SO EASY to overvalue size and you end up with a big frame that can't do everything else as good ... so Marner was always my pick over Strome in that draft (and so far, Marner's looked better than Strome but it 's eraly, of course) ... in that draft my dilemma was more Marner vs. Hanifin. With us drafting Matthews a year later it makes Marner an even better choice over Strome.

Back to last night's game, as well as we played (and Florida's poor defense sure helped) I just LOL'ed when the first Panthers goal went in.

Before the game I told my buddy "I couldn't wait to see JVR, Bozak, Polak and Hunwick all on the ice at the same time ... it's almost a guaranteed goal against."

And that's exactly how it played out on that play.

It was a nothing dump in, and Polak went into the left corner to chase it down, but because of how slow he is, the Panther player was the first to the puck.

Still, Polak maintained position, and now the Panthers ran a pick along the board, with the puck carrier going deep. The leafs defenders switched and now it's Bozak covering the puck carrier.

Not only he lost that puck battle along the board by a landslide, he got outmuscled and fell. And he was very slow to get back up, this allowed the puck carrier to go around behind the net.

The D was still in decent shape but Hunwick, as the other Dman, HAD TO realize by now to stop the pass from behind the net out into the slot. That's the 1 play he had to make. He was late in reaction, so he couldn't take away the pass.

The pass went into the Panther forward in the slot, and JVR, the guy on him, was skating by him, but failed to check his stick. Next thing you know the puck is in the back of the net.

A nothing play, 4 players in position defensively, and 3 serious breakdowns later it's in the net.

As much as I like JVR and Bozak's offensive ability, you just can't afford to do this shift in, shift out. They're RIGHT THERE but the defensive effort is just not there.

And then you have Polak and Hunwick, who bring nothing else to the table, and they continue to collapse defensively at key moments.

Having all 4 on the ice at the same time is a disaster. I can't wait till see Polak and Hunwick give way to the younger guys ... at least they would have a chance of improving.
 
I keep watching that marner goal. His exuberance is infectious. Much more care free than Nylander and Matthews. I think he's going to be a fan favorite.
 
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