Laine v Matthews
- Thread starter zeke
- Start date
leafman101
Well-known member
Kari Lehtonen did it in Finland too. Olli Jokinen did it at 18 in his post draft year.
But the key thing with that is the recency bias. Laine was dominant for a 30 game stretch to end the year. Matthews stepped into a mens league and was the best player from day one.
But the key thing with that is the recency bias. Laine was dominant for a 30 game stretch to end the year. Matthews stepped into a mens league and was the best player from day one.
And Matthews got eliminated from the playoffs early. Mean while Laine had a hot couple of weeks and the media went crazy about it. Suddenly Laine is #1 material even though Matthews has been the clear #1 all year long.
leafman101
Well-known member
Well they are teenagers who did it, so its not unprecedented. Cam Ward won the Conn Smyth as a 21 year old rookie. Young rookies have won playoff MVPs before, and its not like the list is full of hall of famers. At the end of the day its just a 15 game sample size.
Hoss
Well-known member
Look at the last 10 y years Stanley cup winners centres
Toews
Kopitar
Bergeron
Crosby
Datsyuk
Getzlaf
Staal
And lecavalier
Yes they had their power wingers. But teams based around just the winger haven't had the same success. Even jagr needed Mario
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Toews
Kopitar
Bergeron
Crosby
Datsyuk
Getzlaf
Staal
And lecavalier
Yes they had their power wingers. But teams based around just the winger haven't had the same success. Even jagr needed Mario
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leafman101
Well-known member
zeke
Well-known member
the key stumbling block for me here is the rigidness of euro systems - guys who aren't used in scoring roles can't rack up points. only once they get used on top lines does the stats comp become useful. and by all reports laine started at the bottom of the lineup this year before finishing at the top.
the other point would be that 42pts for an 18yr old doesn't exactly scream franchise.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I don't think their coefficients are on point here. I mean, we've seen what NHL stars produce like over there. Shit, even just looking at Laine, we have a Toronto example of a significantly lesser offensive player in Liiga (Leo) putting up 30-40+ point paces, and not 17 like they've got Laine's pre draft season rated as. I'd have to look into their methodology quite a bit more to see what I disagree with, but I think they've got the non KHL euro leagues too low. Or they've got the NCAA too high. They have a point in the NCAA outweighing the value of a point in Liiga which is messed up.
leafman101
Well-known member
Laine's TOI by month:
September - 16:04 - 0.75 ppg
October - 13:34 - 0.25 ppg
November - 17:09 - 0.75 ppg
December - 18:29 - 0.75 ppg
January - 19:02 - 1.22 ppg
February - 17:40 - 0.66 ppg
March - 17:29 - 0.00 ppg
Playoffs - 18:32 - 0.83 ppg
His ice time and production were pretty consistent all year aside from October when he was hurt and played 5 minutes in one of 4 games bringing his average down, and January where he had a big hot streak.
Meanwhile Matthews came in from day one and was the best player in the league.
September - 16:04 - 0.75 ppg
October - 13:34 - 0.25 ppg
November - 17:09 - 0.75 ppg
December - 18:29 - 0.75 ppg
January - 19:02 - 1.22 ppg
February - 17:40 - 0.66 ppg
March - 17:29 - 0.00 ppg
Playoffs - 18:32 - 0.83 ppg
His ice time and production were pretty consistent all year aside from October when he was hurt and played 5 minutes in one of 4 games bringing his average down, and January where he had a big hot streak.
Meanwhile Matthews came in from day one and was the best player in the league.
zeke
Well-known member
yeah i'd agree. doesn't pass the smell test.
leafman101
Well-known member
How though? At 17 Laine was outproduced by Mikael Granlund and Alexander Barkov at the same age in the same league. At 17 Matthews outproduced everyone who ever played for the USNDP program at the same age including Patrick Kane, Jack Eichel and Phil Kessel.
Compared to their peers in recent years Auston Matthews' 17 year old season was more impressive. One of the more dominant 17 year old seasons in recent memory outside of McDavid.
Preston_Mizzi
Banned
zeke is slowly turning into that habhater guy. Remember him? I wonder what he's up to these days?
leafman101
Well-known member
Top U18 seasons in Finland since 2010
1. Mikael Granlund - 43 gp, 13 gls, 40 pts, 0.93 ppg
2. Aleksander Barkov - 53 gp, 21 gls, 48 pts, 0.91 ppg
3. Patrik Laine - 46 gp, 17 gls, 33 pts, 0.72 ppg
4. Artturi Lehkonen - 45 gp, 14 gls, 30 pts, 0.67 ppg
5. Joel Armia - 48 gp, 18 gls, 29 pts, 0.60 ppg
6. Jesse Puljujarvi - 50 gl, 13 gls, 28 pts, 0.56 ppg
7. Teuvo Teraveinen - 40 gp, 11 gls, 18 pts, 0.45 ppg
8. Juuso Ikonene - 20 gp, 4 gls, 9 pts, 0.45 ppg
9. Sebastien Aho - 27 gp, 4 gls, 11 pts, 0.41 ppg
10. Kasperi Kapanen - 47 gp, 7 gls, 14 pts, 0.30 ppg
All time U18 seasons USNTDP:
1. Auston Matthews - 60 gp, 55 gls, 116 pts, 1.93 ppg
2. Phil Kessel - 41 gp, 41 gls, 73 pts, 1.78 ppg
3. Clayton Keller - 62 gp, 37 gls, 107 pts, 1.73 ppg
4. Jack Eichel - 53 gp, 38 gls, 87 pts, 1.64 ppg
5. Patrick Kane - 43 gp, 35 gls, 68 pts, 1.58 ppg
6. Sonny Milano - 58 gp, 29 gls, 86 pts, 1.48 ppg
7. Matthew Tkachuk - 65 gp, 38 gls, 96 pts, 1.48 ppg
8. Jeremy Bracco - 65 gp, 30 gls, 94 pts, 1.45 ppg
9. Kieffer Bellows - 62 gp, 50 gls, 81 pts, 1.31 ppg
10. James Van Riemsdyk - 30 gp, 20 gls, 38 pts, 1.27 ppg
1. Mikael Granlund - 43 gp, 13 gls, 40 pts, 0.93 ppg
2. Aleksander Barkov - 53 gp, 21 gls, 48 pts, 0.91 ppg
3. Patrik Laine - 46 gp, 17 gls, 33 pts, 0.72 ppg
4. Artturi Lehkonen - 45 gp, 14 gls, 30 pts, 0.67 ppg
5. Joel Armia - 48 gp, 18 gls, 29 pts, 0.60 ppg
6. Jesse Puljujarvi - 50 gl, 13 gls, 28 pts, 0.56 ppg
7. Teuvo Teraveinen - 40 gp, 11 gls, 18 pts, 0.45 ppg
8. Juuso Ikonene - 20 gp, 4 gls, 9 pts, 0.45 ppg
9. Sebastien Aho - 27 gp, 4 gls, 11 pts, 0.41 ppg
10. Kasperi Kapanen - 47 gp, 7 gls, 14 pts, 0.30 ppg
All time U18 seasons USNTDP:
1. Auston Matthews - 60 gp, 55 gls, 116 pts, 1.93 ppg
2. Phil Kessel - 41 gp, 41 gls, 73 pts, 1.78 ppg
3. Clayton Keller - 62 gp, 37 gls, 107 pts, 1.73 ppg
4. Jack Eichel - 53 gp, 38 gls, 87 pts, 1.64 ppg
5. Patrick Kane - 43 gp, 35 gls, 68 pts, 1.58 ppg
6. Sonny Milano - 58 gp, 29 gls, 86 pts, 1.48 ppg
7. Matthew Tkachuk - 65 gp, 38 gls, 96 pts, 1.48 ppg
8. Jeremy Bracco - 65 gp, 30 gls, 94 pts, 1.45 ppg
9. Kieffer Bellows - 62 gp, 50 gls, 81 pts, 1.31 ppg
10. James Van Riemsdyk - 30 gp, 20 gls, 38 pts, 1.27 ppg
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MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
You've said this twice now. It was as wrong the first time, as it is the second time with the difference being that it's been explained to you once already. They're basically equivalent in quality. Feel free to hit hockeyDB and roster gaze for a bit if you want.
17 yr old 1.93 ppg in the USNDTP is less impressive than .72ppg in Liiga?
zeke
Well-known member
this is where my difficulties come in - USNDP stats. I have no idea what they mean, or how the program and level of competition has changed over the years. I hate to rely on them.
not to mention that liiga scoring seems to have changed - barkov finished 22nd in ppg and laine 27th.
but the barkov comp is interesting - is matthews 18yr old season more impressive than barkov's 17yr old season?
not to mention that liiga scoring seems to have changed - barkov finished 22nd in ppg and laine 27th.
but the barkov comp is interesting - is matthews 18yr old season more impressive than barkov's 17yr old season?
leafman101
Well-known member
Short answer, yes. Way more impressive. Matthews was almost as good at 18 as some of the best hockey players in the world in their early 20's in the NLA. He was the best player in the NLA this year. Barkov was a top 10 scorer. And Barkov is ****ing awesome. I'd take him over Laine too.
hockeylover
Well-known member
I'm actually quite surprised to see Zeke argue on behalf of Laine given what you just posted.