Leaf Rumours

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

Its better. Never said it wasn't. But its not the difference between being a good team, and not.

The team wouldn't have been any better the last few years.

No, I disagree. This team might not have been so desperate to make the Kessel trade had the Muskoka 5 had been traded.

Making the Kessel trade could have added to an already young core and not left us high and dry pick wise.

Now, Burke has no choice but to make the playoffs next year which might mean more short sighted deals in that attempt.

 

[leafman101]

Impossible to say......if those guys move then, then maybe Kaberle leaves when Carter + 1st are offered, maybe Sundin moves at the deadline....maybe Kubina....etc etc...

Impossible to know what kind of domino effect us being able to start our rebuilding process all that much earlier may have had, but it's pretty safe to say we'd be better off for it now, and Burke would have had even more assets at his disposal.

We already say what he was able to do with what he had......add a handful of first round picks to his prospect pool, add some guys like Torres, Ladd and Johnson.......odds are he's far closer to his finished product than he is right now.

Hell......maybe he'd of been able to land Kessel without having to deal our 1st this year.

No its not impossible to say for one major reason. JFJ was a very, very bad GM.

He wasn't helping out this organization no matter what he did. He would have ****ed it up either way.

The problem was they hired the wrong guy, not that they gave him the wrong objective.

Rebuilding the team after the cap was implemented was a huge job, and JFJ wasn't capable of handling it.

 

[Montana]

if we're talking about luca sbisa then who really cares?

You mean the Luca Sbisa that was used in a deal to land Chris Pronger?

Given Burke's propensity for trades, and the fact he was a big piece to a deal for a player of Pronger's caliber, I'm sure Burke would have enjoyed having that kind of asset.

in all probability the future would look slightly better.

..and potentially much better, with little chance of it looking any worse.

 

[leafman101]

No, I disagree. This team might not have been so desperate to make the Kessel trade had the Muskoka 5 had been traded.

Making the Kessel trade could have added to an already young core and not left us high and dry pick wise.

Now, Burke has no choice but to make the playoffs next year which might mean more short sighted deals in that attempt.

Yeah thats what I'm saying. The prospect pool would be a little deeper and the on ice team wouldn't be any better.

 

[Montana]

No its not impossible to say for one major reason. JFJ was a very, very bad GM.

He wasn't helping out this organization no matter what he did. He would have ****ed it up either way.

The problem was they hired the wrong guy, not that they gave him the wrong objective.

Rebuilding the team after the cap was implemented was a huge job, and JFJ wasn't capable of handling it.

He was a bad GM, made even worse by the heavy hands of management..........we'd be a better team today (potentially much better), and Burke would have more to work with, had JFJ had the opportunity to start the rebuilding process when he wanted to.

I'd of much rather had JFJ at the helm of the rebuild for a couple years, than the sh*t show of a job Fletcher did in his year.


No ones saying JFJ was a good GM by any stretch......but if he was allowed to do what he wanted to do at the 06 deadline....worked on a rebuild for a few years, and then handed the team off to Burke....I suspect we'd be a FAR better team than we were when Burke got the reigns.

 

[leafman101]

And I suspect we'd be saying: "what he traded a norris candidate for this useless hack...we'd be so much better off if..."

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

If I said this team would be a playoff team then I truly did not mean that. It was not my intention to come off sounding like that. What I meant was this team would be further down the road to being a playoff team having been two years ahead of when they started rebuilding.

I take that back, there is nothing to try and clarify since I never said it to begin with so there is nothing to apologize for. Typical of this board lately.

 

[Montana]

And I suspect we'd be saying: "what he traded a norris candidate for this useless hack...we'd be so much better off if..."

You might.


Personally I'd be happy to have Jeff Carter, Jack Johnson, Andrew Ladd, Raffi Torres and a two 1st round picks (added to our prospect pool)....in place of what we we currently have left instead.....just Kaberle + 4 more years of 1 million in dead cap space.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

you totally just changed your argument. you said this would be a playoff team.



not sure why this matters. like leafman said, the prospect pool would be a bit better. that's it.

it's not like we'd be talking about crosby, or malking, or even a toews or kane here. we're looking at a situation where kaberle is replaced with carter, and the leafs have a couple of extra late firsts.

that's a good thing to have. but wouldn't make this team substantially better now, or in the future.



depends on where/who those first rounders are.

if we're talking about john carlsson then sure. if we're talking about luca sbisa then who really cares?



in all probability the future would look slightly better.

the best young players, however, would be exactly the same.

kessel, schenn, kadri (or schenn, two players who i see as interchangeable), bozak, gustavsson...

again, the only guy who changes that is carlsson and who knows if the leafs would have picked him.

Oh gee, what a surprise, i went back to re-read to see if I had said that the Leafs would be a playoff team thinking maybe I had given that impression. Not a surprise, I did not do that what so ever. I was just talking about the rebuilding process potentially being further along, not once did I mention playoffs.

This board is becoming all too typical with this kind of junk. :facepalm

 

[mbow30]

i'm assuming nothing. you're the one doing that.

the leafs might have had a slightly worse team in 06-07 had they let mccabe walk. that's the only one that maybe would have had a big impact on the team.

since kaberle was almost traded the team has picked 5th, 7th and 2nd. since sundin was almost traded the team has picked 5th, 7th and 2nd (and he barely even played after the deadline in '08).

 

[leafman101]

You might.


Personally I'd be happy to have Jeff Carter, Jack Johnson, Andrew Ladd, Raffi Torres and a two 1st round picks (added to our prospect pool)....in place of what we we currently have left instead.....just Kaberle + 4 more years of 1 million in dead cap space.

Well Jeff Carter and the 2 1sts is a seperate discussion. Kaberle refused to waive his NTC, JFJ wasn't the GM anymore, and that was Fletcher trying to rebuild the team, so it had nothing to do with management telling JFJ to make the playoffs.

And thats the example of the difference between a good GM (even though he went senile after the "Muskoka 5" deadline) trying to rebuild and a bad one.

The Carter deal would have been a great deal, and something JFJ wouldn't have been able to pull off. McCabe would have been dealt for a couple 2nd liners (according to the rumour).

JFJ would have been bad for this team either way.

 

[mbow30]

Oh gee, what a surprise, i went back to re-read to see if I had said that the Leafs would be a playoff team thinking maybe I had given that impression. Not a surprise, I did not do that what so ever. I was just talking about the rebuilding process potentially being further along, not once did I mention playoffs.

and i quote..

The Leafs might be in the playoffs if not for Muskoka 5.

This board is becoming all too typical with this kind of junk. :facepalm

most of the junk i have seen on here this summer has been courtesy of you and your incoherent and/or immature and/or 8-year-old-girl rantings and ravings.

it's a tired act. and has been since you started posting.

so if you hate it here so much then leave. nobody would miss you.

 

[Montana]

JFJ would have been bad for this team either way..

He could of been better for us, than he was.


Jack Johnson, Andrew Ladd, and Raffi Torres....are worth alot more to us than zero assets and 1 million in dead cap space for 4 more years.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

i'm assuming nothing. you're the one doing that.

the leafs might have had a slightly worse team in 06-07 had they let mccabe walk. that's the only one that maybe would have had a big impact on the team.

since kaberle was almost traded the team has picked 5th, 7th and 2nd. since sundin was almost traded the team has picked 5th, 7th and 2nd (and he barely even played after the deadline in '08).

No, your assuming too, since if these trades (notice how I was talking about McCabe under contract not agreeing to be traded and not when he was becoming a free agent which was the point of the whole thing....Muskoka 5) had gone down, the results for this team might have changed as well as having the assets aquired in the trade.

It is all a big maybe and trying to rewrite history, who knows what might have happened in the end.

But its worth discussing which I think is far to often overlooked on this board.

 

[leafman101]

Jack Johnson, Andrew Ladd, and Raffi Torres....are worth alot more to us than zero assets and 1 million in dead cap space for 4 more years.


Considerably more.

Yeah, and that proves my point.

The latter is just an example of what happens when a bad GM is trying to rebuild.

And that is exactly my point.

Were the McCabe and Tucker deals good? No, because Fletcher lost it. He was given the objective to rebuild and he wasn't capable of handling it.

It doesn't matter what the objective from above is. It matters who is carrying it out.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

Oh gee, what a surprise, i went back to re-read to see if I had said that the Leafs would be a playoff team thinking maybe I had given that impression. Not a surprise, I did not do that what so ever. I was just talking about the rebuilding process potentially being further along, not once did I mention playoffs.

and i quote..






most of the junk i have seen on here this summer has been courtesy of you and your incoherent and/or immature and/or 8-year-old-girl rantings and ravings.

it's a tired act. and has been since you started posting.

so if you hate it here so much then leave. nobody would miss you.

Oh and it just became summer not to long ago and I haven't had proper internet access for weeks until the last few days. So I'm not quite sure how everything you proclaim to be "incoherant" can be from me. I've made the odd Blue Jays posts and maybe a couple of other comments on Leaf matters but other than that, I don't know.

 

[Montana]

Yeah, and that proves my point.

The latter is just an example of what happens when a bad GM is trying to rebuild.

And that is exactly my point.

Were the McCabe and Tucker deals good? No, because Fletcher lost it. He was given the objective to rebuild and he wasn't capable of handling it.

It doesn't matter what the objective from above is. It matters who is carrying it out.

It does quite the opposite of 'proving your point'...


Jack Johnson, Raffi Torres, Andrew Ladd would be far more valuable to Burke and this franchise going forward than the 1 million in dead cap space we have for the next 4 years instead..........which was my sole point from the get go......that it's a shame JFJ wasn't allowed to start the rebuild when he wanted to.

I never claimed JFJ was a good GM..........only that we'd of been better off had he been allowed to start the rebuild when he wanted to........which clearly we would be.

 

[MapleLeafBlueJayBoy]

It does quite the opposite of 'proving your point'...


Jack Johnson, Raffi Torres, Andrew Ladd would be far more valuable to Burke and this franchise going forward than the 1 million in dead cap space we have for the next 4 years instead..........which was my sole point from the get go......that it's a shame JFJ wasn't allowed to start the rebuild when he wanted to.


It's pretty black and white.

I agree with you, had JFJ had done what he wanted to initially then maybe things would be better off for the team. But he was not allowed to and then, he made some awful desperate decisions which make me wonder about his ability to handed a rebuild from the start.

 

[leafman101]

It does quite the opposite of 'proving your point'...


Jack Johnson, Raffi Torres, Andrew Ladd would be far more valuable to Burke and this franchise going forward than the 1 million in dead cap space we have for the next 4 years instead..........which was my sole point from the get go......that it's a shame JFJ wasn't allowed to start the rebuild when he wanted to.


It's pretty black and white.

No its not. Because you are isolating two rumours and saying "i wish this happened and nothing else."

But we all know that wouldn't have been what happened.

JFJ would have made a ton of shit stupid moves, that would have hurt the team in the long run. Not just made the two that in retrospect may have been a little positive. For all we know Kaberle and Antropov would have been dealt for Benoit Pouliot.

Bad GM's make bad moves, no matter what they are trying to accomplish. (see Fletcher and JFJ vs Quinn and Burke)

 

[mbow30]

You mean the Luca Sbisa that was used in a deal to land Chris Pronger?

Given Burke's propensity for trades, and the fact he was a big piece to a deal for a player of Pronger's caliber, I'm sure Burke would have enjoyed having that kind of asset.

come on, he was one piece of, what, 4?

sbisa's an ok youngster. but the leafs have plenty of very similar assets in the organization that burke can use to strike a deal.

this just isn't a good argument.

and you're really arguing about something completely different, here. could they have better maximized mccabe and tucker on the trade market? yes. but that had nothing to do with the 'muskoka five' nonsense. this was before that. ferguson (or if we're to believe him, tml) missing the boat on maximizing those assets had nothing to do with those players.

again, the only one that this applies to is kaberle (given that the return on sundin was -- let's face it -- negligible). and if you think that having luca sbisa and jeff carter makes this team any better now, or much better down the road then you're being dishonest.

you can't just clump these potential deals together. yeah, the future would look brighter with ladd, johnson and whoever... fine... but these non-trades happened for different reasons.

for the sake of this discussion it should be clarified, however, that it was one or the other, and not both of ladd and johnson.

the latter would be nice. i see ladd as a negligible piece. a player of his ilk/caliber can be acquired in a host of ways, and wouldn't require the leafs 'maximizing' mccabe as an asset to acquire.