Leaf Rumours

[LeafOfFaith]

gunnarsson has barely been a serviceable nhl'er this year. he has been a 6th/7th defenseman at best with no real strengths and a few rather large deficiencies... let alone a 'serviceable #4.'

he played well last year.. and he will undoubtedly perform better than he has this year. but this is a pretty limited player.

He has been a little more up and down this year as compared to his rookie year, but maybe that has to do with idiot Wilson keeping him out of 1/3 of the games in favor of perennial all star Brett Lebda.

If he'd been allowed to play regularly, he'd be improving on a very, very good rookie campaign.

 

[mbow30]

you're inverting cause and effect here. he has lost ice time and been sat in the pressbox because he has played like shit. him getting his ass handed to him in the corners several times a game has nothing to do with his d-partner.. he just hasn't played well. that's on nobody but gunnarsson.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Beauchemin is an excellent NHL defenseman, Gunnarsson is not.

Trading Beauch hurts us considerably, trading Gunnar does not.

Yeah, because you say so.

You're clearly worried about finishing 28th instead of 27th this year, and going for the Cup next year.

That's why keeping Beauch on the team is important to you, and clearing the roster of a sophomore who in his rookie season wiped the floor with Beauchemin.

2009/2010:

Gunnarson 43 GP, 3 G 12 A 15 PTS, +8
Beauchemin 82 GP, 5 G 21 A 26 PTS, -13

But yeah, let's dump the kid that did that last year at 23 and keep the overpaid bum who did what he did at 29, and for $3M more.

Good idea.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

you're inverting cause and effect here. he has lost ice time and been sat in the pressbox because he has played like shit. him getting his ass handed to him in the corners several times a game has nothing to do with his d-partner.. he just hasn't played well. that's on nobody but gunnarsson.

Let's crucify a 24 year old for a few mistakes in limited action in his sophomore season but who has otherwise played well.

But let's not bench Beauch when he makes perfect passes to the opposing team in front of the net half a dozen times per game.

 

[mbow30]

sorry, but it's ****ing stupid to argue that these two players are even remotely comparable in any way, shape or form.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Nice counter.

Also, pretty stupid and baseless counter.

 

[mbow30]

Let's crucify a 24 year old for a few mistakes in limited action in his sophomore season but who has otherwise played well.

who is crucifying him?

he hasn't played well, and there is enough competition on the blueline where, if he is struggling, he shouldn't be playing. that isn't crucifying him. nobody is scapegoating gunnarsson for this team's struggles. still, he has to play better if he wants to stay in the lineup. and even still, he just doesn't have enough upside that the team should be at all wary of dealing him if they can improve up front.

But let's not bench Beauch when he makes perfect passes to the opposing team in front of the net half a dozen times per game.

oh, cut the crap.

 

[mbow30]

Nice counter.

Also, pretty stupid and baseless counter.

no, it isn't baseless at all. baseless is comparing a mediocre bottom pair defender to a 30 year old who a few years back played 25+ minutes per game on a cup winner. that is the epitome of baseless.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

 

[LeafOfFaith]

no, it isn't baseless at all. baseless is comparing a mediocre bottom pair defender to a 30 year old who a few years back played 25+ minutes per game on a cup winner. that is the epitome of baseless.

Nice try. Your attempt to paint a very talented and promising 24 yr old sophomore as a "mediocre bottom pair defender" when he outperformed Beauch last year in limited time (and is playing just about as well this year), and to defend a 30 yr old overpaid bum who consistently makes horrible defensive miscues and provides minimal offense simply because he played for a cup winner years ago, is the epitome of ludicrous.

But again, opinions as to who's better aside, it makes much, much more sense for our team to part with the older, expensive, absolutely non-integral player than his young, cheap and promising teammate. That is an irrefutable fact if you have come to accept where our team will likely finish over the next couple of years and the respective contract/age situations of the two players.

 

[Wayward DP]

Sorry LOF but your well known hatred of Beau seems to be clouding your judgment on this one. For all of Beauchemin's flaws he is still currently a much much better defenseman than Gunnar, and will in all likelihood continue to be in the future.

Gunnar showed glimpses last year of top-4 potential, but has not even come close to repeating that this year. In the meantime Beauchemin has already proven himself as a (semi)competent top pairing defenseman, and a #3 or #4 at the worst (whereas that would appear to be Gunnar's ceiling).

It's not even close really. Despite all your hatred for Beauchemin surely you must realize that in his present form he is still better than Gunnarsson (who I really liked last year)

 

[Wayward DP]

Nice try. Your attempt to paint a very talented and promising 24 yr old sophomore as a "mediocre bottom pair defender" when he outperformed Beauch last year in limited time (and is playing just about as well this year), and to defend a 30 yr old overpaid bum who consistently makes horrible defensive miscues and provides minimal offense simply because he played for a cup winner years ago, is the epitome of ludicrous.

But again, opinions as to who's better aside, it makes much, much more sense for our team to part with the older, expensive, absolutely non-integral player than his young, cheap and promising teammate. That is an irrefutable fact if you have come to accept where our team will likely finish over the next couple of years and the respective contract/age situations of the two players.

I think the one it makes more sense to get rid of is the one who brings us back the most forward help. Losing Beauchemin weakens our D significantly more than losing Gunnar would (Gunnar can barely crack the top 6 as is), but right now we need forwards badly enough that I don't care which of the two we give up. And I love how you skew the comparison between the two players. Gunnar may be a 'young, cheap, and promising teammate' BUT his promise or potential is to maybe, just maybe, one day be as good as Beauchemin is now. Currently it's not even close.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Sorry LOF but your well known hatred of Beau seems to be clouding your judgment on this one. For all of Beauchemin's flaws he is still currently a much much better defenseman than Gunnar, and will in all likelihood continue to be in the future.

Gunnar showed glimpses last year of top-4 potential, but has not even come close to repeating that this year. In the meantime Beauchemin has already proven himself as a (semi)competent top pairing defenseman, and a #3 or #4 at the worst (whereas that would appear to be Gunnar's ceiling).

It's not even close really. Despite all your hatred for Beauchemin surely you must realize that in his present form he is still better than Gunnarsson (who I really liked last year)

Hatred has nothing to do with it, and views on the players is secondary.

Beauch is not a guy who has a long term future with out team. He is done after next season, not going to be brought back. And in the meantime, a team trying to make the playoffs would pay more in trade to get Beauch. He is the guy you trade, not Gunnar, who had a great rookie year and is being sat after good games this year just to get Lebda some ice time. Not exactly ideal conditions for a kid to build on a solid first campaign.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

I think the one it makes more sense to get rid of is the one who brings us back the most forward help. Losing Beauchemin weakens our D significantly more than losing Gunnar would (Gunnar can barely crack the top 6 as is), but right now we need forwards badly enough that I don't care which of the two we give up. And I love how you skew the comparison between the two players. Gunnar may be a 'young, cheap, and promising teammate' BUT his promise or potential is to maybe, just maybe, one day be as good as Beauchemin is now. Currently it's not even close.

Uh, he was BETTER in every department than Beauch last year, in his rookie year. Especially defensively.

He is arguably as good as Beauchemin this very second. It is only reasonable to think that last year's performance by Gunnar is his floor, not his ceiling, and what he did last year was EASILY #3 or #4 d-man worthy.

 

[mbow30]

Nice try. Your attempt to paint a very talented and promising 24 yr old sophomore as a "mediocre bottom pair defender" when he outperformed Beauch last year in limited time (and is playing just about as well this year), and to defend a 30 yr old overpaid bum who consistently makes horrible defensive miscues and provides minimal offense simply because he played for a cup winner years ago, is the epitome of ludicrous.

Gunnarsson isn't 'very talented.' He is alright. He might develop into a solid second pair defenseman. He will never hold a candle to Beauchemin, though. He isn't nearly as good a skater, nearly as aggressive, nearly as good physically, nearly as good with the puck, doesn't shoot it as well and doesn't have remotely comparable instincts on the pinch.

He did not 'outperform' beauchemin last year (not even close), and has been significantly, laughably, incomparably worse than Beauchemin has been this year. Gunnarsson has lost ice time because he has played poorly. That isn't crucifying him. It isn't denying his potential. It's just stating a fact. He has been soft, he has been poor in his own end, he has struggled to fend off the forecheck and he has done a poor job of moving the puck in transition.

Meanwhile, Beauchemin is none of the things you say he is. He had a rough start to his Maple Leaf career. Since then he has been nothing but solid. Your problem is that you cannot seem to grasp the fact that mistakes are made, especially when you have a player who is aggressive in pursuit of the puck as Beauchemin is, and especially when that player plays 25 minutes a night. His mistakes aren't nearly as glaring -- or costly -- as the ones that guys like Lebda, Komisarek or Gunnarsson have made this year. though. And calling him overpaid is ridiculous. He is certifiably underpaid. Similar defensemen -- most of whom aren't even as good as Beauchemin -- are earning more money. See: Michalek, Hamhuis, etc.

But again, opinions as to who's better aside, it makes much, much more sense for our team to part with the older, expensive, absolutely non-integral player than his young, cheap and promising teammate. That is an irrefutable fact if you have come to accept where our team will likely finish over the next couple of years and the respective contract/age situations of the two players.

I wouldn't hesitate to trade either player. Beauchemin shouldn't be deemed untradeable just because he's good, just like Gunnarsson shouldn't be deemed untradeable just because he's young.

 

[mbow30]

Uh, he was BETTER in every department than Beauch last year, in his rookie year. Especially defensively.

He is arguably as good as Beauchemin this very second. It is only reasonable to think that last year's performance by Gunnar is his floor, not his ceiling, and what he did last year was EASILY #3 or #4 d-man worthy.

you've entrenched on kb territory here.

 

[teeds]

I think LOF hates Beauchemin for sure. And I can see why Beauchemin was pretty bad his first 50 games here. Now he is better and playing pretty well. He still looks dumb as shit to look at, and he still can make the silliest play imaginable, but on some nights is our best dman.

He doesn't look like he gives too much of a shit, but that is probably because he doesn't get much sleep like most modern players, because instead of being afraid for his job and his future, he is kept awake trying to count all his money.

 

[MindzEye]

I have no special love for Beauch at all, but simply put, defending the puck he's our best defender...yes, better than my boy Schenn, who is incredible at that aspect of the game. Beauch wins more pucks along the boards than anyone on our blueline not named Schenn...but yes, is turnover prone once he's won those pucks.

As for Gunner being a part of the future of this blueline..no, not really. He's too soft along the walls and lacks any sort of plus puck skills.

 

[mbow30]

I have no special love for Beauch at all, but simply put, defending the puck he's our best defender...yes, better than my boy Schenn, who is incredible at that aspect of the game. Beauch wins more pucks along the boards than anyone on our blueline not named Schenn...but yes, is turnover prone once he's won those pucks.

As for Gunner being a part of the future of this blueline..no, not really. He's too soft along the walls and lacks any sort of plus puck skills.

Hey Gunnarsson's alright and I'm not against keeping him. But he's a very tradeable asset who has a price tag that might make him attractive to a team looking to shed some salary. I think what it comes down is that he's a completely unnecessary piece right now, and with this team's plethora of young defensemen with an NHL skillset (Aulie, Gysbyrs, Holzer and Mikus on the Marlies, and Blacker is turning himself into a legit prospect with those big numbers he has posted so far with the Attack)... expendable in the future as well.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Gunnar is better than all those youngsters with the exception of MAYBE Aulie.