leafman101
Well-known member
It also wasn't a reason we won something, so 7 years later whats the point exactly?
No Excuses No Limits! The mother fucking goddamn season thread
- Thread starter mbow30
- Start date
It also wasn't a reason we won something, so 7 years later whats the point exactly?
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
and even using raw totals is generous imo because it misses a number of players who started their careers after he arrived here and have also outperformed him.
If we set a minimum games played of 150:
GPG: 28th
A1PG: 56th
APG: 53rd
PPG: 35th
and fuck his playoff numbers, I'm not even doing those. Biggest playoff flop per dollar in the league.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
The same way that Marner, Matty, and a lesser extent Nylander, have all been A reason, sure.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Some people just got overly romantic about the idea of a Toronto kid coming home in their prime because we missed out on some many home grown (or close enough) stars over the years, or got them when they were a shell of their former selves. Gretzky, Lindros, Roberts, Nieuwy, etc, etc.
Tavares was always overrated though imo. Never an actual superstar. Just a really good 5-10th best 1C. A step down from Sundin during his time here imo and Mats in turn was a step down from the elite guys of his era like Mario, Forsberg, Sakic, Federov, Lindros Prime. The best of the 2nd group of guys like Modano, Francis, Turgeon, Yashin, Weight, Oates, Allison, etc.
I know a bunch of people who were super hyped about Tavares coming to Toronto because they honestly thought he was a superstar. But if you were ranking centres at the time we signed him, all of these guys get taken before him easily.
Sid, Connor, Gino, Mack, Kopitar, Bergeron, with Matthews on the cusp of joining at 20. At the time Tavares was in a pile of guys like Giroux, Seguin, 22 yr old Barkov, Backstrom, Scheifele, Toews, Pavelski, Eichel, Getzlaf. All really good players, but none of them worth true superstar money (most of them making 6-9 million at the time).
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Tavares has been the worst performer of the group over the life of his deal though. The worst by a lot in the playoffs. That was not supposed to be the case when he was paid like a superstar and then later given the C.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
So trade everyone, why just focus on him?
Good news is, the $11m is almost done, and if he returns, it'll be for a fraction of it. No more excuses then, just a guy putting up near PPG or so making maybe 30% or 40% of what he was.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
You've come up with this fictional narrative that he was supposed to be the best of the four. And the only reason you're doing that is because you're hung up on the $11M. The other three were better than him even at the time, and if not, at least were expected to be very shortly.
This whole thing is as silly as if he and Berard were on the same team and you were griping about how much more Tavares made than Berard on his ELC. You're comparing apples to oranges when comparing UFA Tavares to RFA Matty, Marner, and Nylander. Forget the money. We paid market rate for the top UFA that year and he's performed as expected. The other three guys at age 20 were expected to elevate their games in getting us over the hump, not Tavares at age 27. They didn't, but the blame falls on the guy who has come exactly as promised, and has actually exceeded expectations because even I wasn't going to reasonably expect that he'd potentially be PPG in year 7.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
There's zero chance of that happening. You don't have to be a Zadina mind reader to know that.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
I've done nothing of the sort. He was supposed to be as good as any of them other than Matthews though. Otherwise, what the fuck are you doing paying him 11 million to be the 4th best forward on the team?
This just isn't remotely true in the case of Marner and Nylander.
Capped league, can't. Note that the teams who have won cups since were all efficient with their cap spending.
Tavares was expected to be a star/superstar here and he just hasn't been as LM and myself have shown. As for your favourite "PPG" nonsense. He wasn't remotely close to being PPG last season and is currently on pace for a 20G/60PT season. When all is said and done he'll have been a 1.0PPG player in a Leaf jersey 2 times in 7 seasons.
and let's not get into his epic flop as a playoff performer.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
This time is different though, because more people realize I've been right the entire time now and that the move was a fucking disaster that might have submarined the entire era.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
You're not right. You're taking one guy out of a team of 20, who has put up 425 points in 448 games as a Leaf, and saying he's the reason we haven't won anything.
Think about how fucking stupid that is when there are so very many other things that we can talk about like Barrie/Kerfoot, McCann, Hyman, Baboonskin, Simmonds, Reaves and a million other things. And let's not even talk about the big 3's epic playoff flops.
It's an entirely baseless scapegoating attempt.
Think about how fucking stupid that is when there are so very many other things that we can talk about like Barrie/Kerfoot, McCann, Hyman, Baboonskin, Simmonds, Reaves and a million other things. And let's not even talk about the big 3's epic playoff flops.
It's an entirely baseless scapegoating attempt.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Since Tavares was signed
You keep trying to pass of Tavares' performance as just another failure of the big 4. Nah. His was special. His entire prime, the veteran captain of the group. Minus fucking 9 in 38 games, medicore 2nd line production.
The reason? No. One of the biggest reasons. Yeah.
trujaysfan
Well-known member
This board used to be "big swings on elite talent and then fill in the roster" and now we are debating signing the only top FA to give us time over the last decade.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
Oh hey, you're citing plus/minus for the first time in a decade. What a comeback.
We've gone over the total no-show of the big boys in the final games of playoffs series. Their point totals outside those games don't change the fact that they were all ghosts in games 6 and 7.
We've gone over the total no-show of the big boys in the final games of playoffs series. Their point totals outside those games don't change the fact that they were all ghosts in games 6 and 7.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
This is the problem though. Tavares was never the elite talent we wanted/needed, that's my point.
I would argue that free agency is the wrong place to be looking for an elite talent for the most part. When they do get moved, it's more often by trade. Panarin is the only elite guy (for sake of discussion let's call that a consensuc top 5 player at their position) I can think of who moved through free agency in the last long ass time.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
Conservative estimate
Wayward DP
Well-known member
Hey I’m on OG Tavares contract hater too!
Even I didn’t think we’d be this inept over the life of it…
trujaysfan
Well-known member
That's an interesting take... I 100% guarantee not signing JT and signing Tanev and Hymen would have been viewed really poorly here.
We had shots at Stamkos, pieterangelo etc.
The end result wasn't what we wanted but the ability to go for it (with 7 years of increasing cap) wasn't a bad move.