Wayward DP
Well-known member
True, but I never considered Tavares that type of talent
No Excuses No Limits! The mother fucking goddamn season thread
- Thread starter mbow30
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Wayward DP
Well-known member
The covid cap did royally screw us, too
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
He was a legit 1C who could score goals.
You're not getting MacKinnons and Crosbys and Ovechkins on UFA deals.
Tavares was one of the best of the next level that became available. You don't say no to adding that, even if overpaying due to unrestricted free agency.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Can't speak for others mate, but I was on this train a year before we signed him when it was first starting to get mentioned as possible. Back then I posted a bunch of Tavares vs Kadri numbers and the takeaway was pretty simple. Tavares was better, but not by a lot. We were going to be paying a metric fuckton for JT's reputation without seeing a significant upgrade in performance over Kadri. The last 6-7 years have shown that to be true imo.
Stamkos was a year too early, if he was even interested in leaving Tampa. AP though would have been interesting, better fit for what we've actually needed. Older at the time he hit UFA though, so riskier. But a 2x cup winner as a 23-25mpg RHD.
Again, going to have to disagree. Elite money for elite players. Tavares was never an elite player.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Wrong.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
You'll never get your elite player other than by drafting him.
If that's the only kind of player you'd acquire in free agency, then you'd never sign a free agent. Or you'd be bypassing an excellent player like Tavares in order to try to create his production through multiple cheaper guys.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
Wrong.
zeke
Well-known member
yeah the question was always just how "elite" tavares was. the hockey world certainly loved him as an MVP candidate. the numbers really didn't (the only argument was that deadass NYI was holding his offense back).
2yrs prior to the signing:
Auston(19-20): 5v5 2.21p1/60, 2.47p/60 (2.34avg)
Tavares (25-26): 5v5 1.44p1/60, 1.93p/60 (1.69avg)
Kadri (25-26): 5v5 1.43p1/60, 1.89p/60 (1.66avg)
Since
Auston (21-27): 5v5 2.46p1/60, 2.82p/60 (2.64avg)
Tavares (27-34): 5v5 1.65p1/60, 2.18p/60 (1.92avg)
Kadrii (27-34): 5v5 1.71p1/60, 2.19p/60 (1.95avg)
We already had a Tavares. Except one with energy and charisma.
2yrs prior to the signing:
Auston(19-20): 5v5 2.21p1/60, 2.47p/60 (2.34avg)
Tavares (25-26): 5v5 1.44p1/60, 1.93p/60 (1.69avg)
Kadri (25-26): 5v5 1.43p1/60, 1.89p/60 (1.66avg)
Since
Auston (21-27): 5v5 2.46p1/60, 2.82p/60 (2.64avg)
Tavares (27-34): 5v5 1.65p1/60, 2.18p/60 (1.92avg)
Kadrii (27-34): 5v5 1.71p1/60, 2.19p/60 (1.95avg)
We already had a Tavares. Except one with energy and charisma.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
When you have Matthews, Nylander and Kadri in house....you damn skippy dont need to.
trujaysfan
Well-known member
Nothing stopped us from having matty-JT-kadri down the middle other than the media running the brown guy out of town.
I'm not a huge JT guy but I don't see him as the day 1 anchor you do.
He should be a winger now, we should have upgraded 2LC already. Thats not on JT
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
The answer then, is not to pay non elite players like elite players. It's to target the next tier of guys down who cost less and are nearly as good (or in some cases turn out better). Kadri, Trochek, JT Miller, Strome, Danault, ROR and a bag of others have moved over the last bunch of years all of very similar calibre and all much, much cheaper than 11 million.
leafman101
Well-known member
The real problem was always that Tavares didn’t produce in the playoffs.
And again. He was THE signing to put them over the top. Let’s not pretend like $3 million Kerfoots were more important and damaging to the plan. Winning is all about the big boys.
The Knights don’t regret spending on Eichel. The Panthers don’t regret spending on Tkachuk. Tavares didn’t do what those guys did though. And that was the only reason they swung huge on him,
But he didn’t even have one ppg playoff run in 6 years, never mind be one of the best players in the league in a playoff run.
And again. He was THE signing to put them over the top. Let’s not pretend like $3 million Kerfoots were more important and damaging to the plan. Winning is all about the big boys.
The Knights don’t regret spending on Eichel. The Panthers don’t regret spending on Tkachuk. Tavares didn’t do what those guys did though. And that was the only reason they swung huge on him,
But he didn’t even have one ppg playoff run in 6 years, never mind be one of the best players in the league in a playoff run.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Gets a lot easier to see it as a position you can afford to trade out of when you've just sunk 11 million into your #2 centre. I won't argue that they couldn't have kept that going, sure they could have, but bringing in an expensive #2 centre makes it way, way more likely that you end up seeing your #3 as surplus, and you've also spent time pushing his value down by playing his as your #3, limiting his PP time, etc.
I mean, Dubas has flat out stated in his book:
“The thing I learned was once we signed John to the (AAV) we did, it lifted the lid on the entire ceiling,”
That's a pretty grim effect on day 1 imo, and set the tone of the organization going forward. If we don't sign John, we probably get Auston for something closer to Eichel's extension than what he ended up getting. That causes a knock on effect with Marner because now he's pointing at Auston's 11 and change instead of 12.5, and we probably end up getting him for that Patrick Kane cap hit % I was ranting about at the time (which I think would have been 9.5-9.75). Signing the ~10th best centre in hockey for an 11 million dollar deal immediately turned that into the floor for Auston's negotiations. He ended up signing roughly halfway between that number and Connor's.
Tough to upgrade on 2LC when you have so much money locked in on a 65 point LW'er mate.
trujaysfan
Well-known member
Without kampf, jcock, Reaves we could have brought in jenner/Monahan etc.
I'd rather have JT for 1 more year then the Elias petterson deal.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Or we could have not signed Tavares and run Matthews-Kadri-went and got an elite checking centre like J Staal, and still had money for the blueline.
I'm not saying other mistakes weren't made. But JT's mistake was the first dominoe in the mistakes of this era. A lot of the other mistakes were made in response to the cap crunch largely caused by JT's contract.
Can I have neither?
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
It did, but it just amplified the mistake imo.
LeafOfFaith
Well-known member
Could've had Matthews-Tavares-Kadri even to this day, because Kadri would've never been able to put up those numbers while playing as a 3C with us and getting limited PP2 minutes, and thus never been able to get a big contract.
And Hyman could've stayed for $5M too.
These are on Dubas, not Tavares.
And Hyman could've stayed for $5M too.
These are on Dubas, not Tavares.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
But why would we want that when Kadri has proven since he left that when given the opportunity as a top 6 centre that he's JT's equal?
Why not take the much cheaper guy who is as good as the more expensive guy and then make the rest of the roster better rather than nerfing Kadri's career for no real reason.
Matthews-Kadri-Danault would have cost us less than Matthews-Tavares-Kampf ended up costing, and yes the reason we forced Kampf into that role was in the hopes of having a defensive matchup centre at a discount.
Why not take the much cheaper guy who is as good as the more expensive guy and then make the rest of the roster better rather than nerfing Kadri's career for no real reason.
Matthews-Kadri-Danault would have cost us less than Matthews-Tavares-Kampf ended up costing, and yes the reason we forced Kampf into that role was in the hopes of having a defensive matchup centre at a discount.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
The answer is somewhere in the range of pajamas and robot lasagna