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OT: Coronavirus Resources - and other things to not worry about

CTheBigPicture said:
So I've asked the family regarding this mixing and matching vaccination strategy. None of us would be comfortable with it if Canada is alone or almost alone in going that route. Considering we are Uber locked down, all work from home, no kids in school, grocery delivered etc we would simply wait for our next Pfizer shot.


Thoughts on this?
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Most of Europe is doing it. Scientifically speaking, theres no reason why it would be unsafe and it might even offer a more wider range of protection. Freedom of choice and everything but I am all the fuck in on mixing and matching personally.

In any event there are ongoing mix and match trials and data may be released before you're up for dose #2.

And we will have a lot of Pfizer too. It's just that at some point we'll have a 50-50ish distribution between Moderna and Pfizer and maybe only 15-20% received moderna as a first dose so I suspect they'll be a lot of folks getting moderna as a second dose. If that doesn't happen we won't finish vaccinating everyone for months. But it's gonna be a thing because there's no reason why it wouldn't be safe and it may give added protection against variants. Gives a wider range of coverage potentially.
 
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Speaking on Monday, Associate Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Barbara Yaffe says provincial health officials are waiting for guidance from NACI before moving forward with the process.

“We’ve asked for NACI to come back with expert opinion recommendations in mid-May with respect to what vaccines can be mixed in terms of the first and second shots,” said Yaffe.

“Likely they will recommend that it is safe and effective to use a different vaccine for the second shot if you cannot get the same that you got for the first one.”
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Yaffe says the UK and other countries have combined vaccines as health experts generally agree that the mixing and matching of the vaccines should be safe.

Trials held in the UK have so far determined that linking vaccines might give broader, longer-lasting immunity against the virus and new variants of it.

More than 800 people across the UK are taking part in the research and have received two doses of either Pfizer, AstraZeneca or a mix.



Results of the first stage of the study are expected next and the enlarged trial should have some findings by June or July.
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Here you go. Between Pfizer and moderna there's basically no difference. CDC already approved mixing those back in january. We don't need trials on that, though I believe there are some ongoing as well. It makes more sense to do trials on AZ and an mRNA product though, or maybe novavax (trials ongoing using novavax in mixing and matching too!). If I'm part of the AZ gang I probably seek out an mRNA product for dose #2. This will likely happen if we do not receive our promised AZ doses in June or July. I think we will but we need to plan for it.
 
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CTheBigPicture said:
So I've asked the family regarding this mixing and matching vaccination strategy. None of us would be comfortable with it if Canada is alone or almost alone in going that route. Considering we are Uber locked down, all work from home, no kids in school, grocery delivered etc we would simply wait for our next Pfizer shot.


Thoughts on this?
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Based on out supply i dont think it would happen here, especially with pfizer. Isnt europe giving 1st dose AZ people pfizer as the second shot?
 
trujaysfan said:
Based on out supply i dont think it would happen here, especially with pfizer. Isnt europe giving 1st dose AZ people pfizer as the second shot?
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This would be what would give me pause. One is MRNA and the other not. I’m down to Moderna/Pfizer for sure. The others?
 
Aberdeen said:
If science says do it, I do it.
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Here is the thing: science is not sometimes black and white. Is science saying mix and match or lack if vaccines?


There are politicians involved here who make/have to make decisions that aren't strictly based on science.. Also there are other factors like NACI being full of pediatricians, vaccines for kids can be delayed, moved around etc., so that definitely informs this team's recommendations.

If "Canada science" says you can mix, but "Australia science" says you can't. Which science is the truth?

Ultimately as individuals we have to make some decisions if it is in our power. My family for instance is SUPER locked down. We don't go anywhere, except for the odd curbside pick up. I moved to our new house several months ago, and my brother has not stepped into the house once. He comes around and we talked while I am standing at the door step and he is in the car. It's kind a stupid how locked down we are but we are scared to death about this thing due to ....several high risk factors.

So I'm sitting here thinking we'll get enough vaccines to not have to mix of I just wait another month or two of this crazy lock down that I'm in. We have next to zero risk in my immediate family so why not wait?
 
Exactly. All these people mad at the NACI for not approving AZ and J&J for everyone are thinking selfishly. On a population level it benefits us to let everyone take it. But on an individual level? The risks may not make much sense and we need guidance and honesty so that we can decide for ourselves.

Anyway, science absolutely does say to mix and match AZ with an mRNA vaccine because AZ is proven completely ineffective vs the SA variant and may struggle with other similar variants. And those are variants that may gain a transmission advantage once we are fully vaccinated as a country. This allows the entire population to have far better widespread immunity. Far better. The UK, for example, will likely be giving everyone who is fully vaccinated with AZ a third shot of an mRNA product this fall. They are waiting for data this summer to confirm before they do that but it's a strong consideration over there considering much of their population has taken AZ.

And the CDC and EMA have already approved mixing and matching mRNA vaccines. That's following the science and wouldn't be an issue whatsoever since they are essentially the same product. I don't think any country is waiting on data before they mix those two.

These are based on expert opinions though, not the government. I haven't seen a single vaccine expert or virologist have any concern about the safety and many theorize that the effectiveness could only improve especially when mixing AZ with an mRNA. But there are trials ongoing and there is data coming shortly on AZ+mRNA. There's no actual science behind mixing being unsafe and effectiveness, as I said, may even improve.

But fucking yes. It's your decision to make. If you're not comfortable then don't do it. Most places have the product available listed when you book, I believe. So if you received Pfizer for dose #1 when you re-book your second appointment you can confirm that Pfizer will be available at that location again. And if it isn't you can book elsewhere. For me personally? If I got Pfizer as my first dose, I think I'd almost seek out Moderna as my 2nd for reasons I won't get into. But that's every individuals decision. You can't be forced to do anything you don't feel comfortable with.
 
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I just seek out people who are smarter than me and go with their thoughts on things. Science is definitely not always black or white but there is a huge consensus on most things with the worlds brightest. I'm not going to seek out 1 in a million Dr. Smith's blog that tells people vaccines are poison and mixing and matching will give everyone cancer, for example. Give me a nice crisp consensus of the worlds top experts and that's better than any brain thinking research that Presto can accomplish.

But the beautiful thing is we can all make our own choices.
 
Cases down to the 2000s today in Ontario. Suspect it could be a one-off (positivity % still sucks) but not bad, not bad. Vaccinations have slowed down as we've hit a supply lull, especially with J&J paused, but we should be receiving that big ass batch of Pfizer today or tomorrow. Would love to see us keep up the momentum because we could have 60-65% of the entire province with at least 1 dose by the end of the month. That SHOULD help a lot with transmission as long as we continue to have our fake pretend lockdown that has helped a bit. If we can get our cases down to the hundreds by July I think we're in the clear.
 
I have no personal skin in the game (got my Moderna jab two weeks ago) but I feel that these mixed messages are crap and hard to navigate.

Is a stressed out citizen supposed to read a million tweets to figure out what's best.

For months the public was told "the best move by far is to get the vaccine that's available"...and now it's "if you are in a position to wait, wait for Pfizer/Moderna"

I understand these are different orgs speaking out; but that just adds to the stress and decision making process.
 
CH1 said:
I have no personal skin in the game (got my Moderna jab two weeks ago) but I feel that these mixed messages are crap and hard to navigate.

Is a stressed out citizen supposed to read a million tweets to figure out what's best.

For months the public was told "the best move by far is to get the vaccine that's available"...and now it's "if you are in a position to wait, wait for Pfizer/Moderna"

I understand these are different orgs speaking out; but that just adds to the stress and decision making process.
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The problem is that there are two different motives there.

From a public health perspective "take the first vaccine that's available" is by far the best for all of us. Politicians will push for this because it benefits them. From an individual's perspective, it becomes a far more difficult decision. NACI is speaking for the individual and Health Canada / our government officials are largely focused on Public Health. So you're right.. They are clashing thoughts and it is causing confusion.

I don't know how to fix it but IMO the problem isn't the NACI (other than that stupid interview that one woman gave).

TLDR: NACI is brutally honest about what the superior product is and we're not seeing anyone massage their message. If anything, HC and government officials are saying the opposite of what the NACI has said and that is causing confusion. Europe has had this same issue and now the US has as well with J&J.
 
That one interview on CTV is unfortunately the one people who don’t read 100 covid tweets a day on twitter will be seeing. I agree with CH1, such a confusing fucking process for people.
 
Not excusing it, but I have yet to see a country get the communication stuff "right." It's difficult and the decision is far more complex than anything we deal with on a day to day basis. This is a good thread but this tweet is kinda what I've been saying about it.




How is the average person supposed to process all of this data and completely comprehend it? We should be doing way better but fuck, it's a tough thing to communicate to the average person. We all want black or white and definitive answers but in this case, as @CTheBigPicture points out, it's anything but black or white on an individualistic basis.
 
CH1 said:
I have no personal skin in the game (got my Moderna jab two weeks ago) but I feel that these mixed messages are crap and hard to navigate.

Is a stressed out citizen supposed to read a million tweets to figure out what's best.

For months the public was told "the best move by far is to get the vaccine that's available"...and now it's "if you are in a position to wait, wait for Pfizer/Moderna"

I understand these are different orgs speaking out; but that just adds to the stress and decision making process.
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most people are not nerds though

they have no idea what NACI just said
they do not even know there are multiple vaccines
 
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