OT: Movies/TV Shows

[LeafOfFaith]

Ezra is pretty insufferable as Barry at the beginning and then as the dumb new Barry, but I did like his acting as the more mature Barry who has to mentor the other…..when he plays it straight it’s really good, and I thought he was good it in the more emotional scenes.

Still tho that’s all 5/10 type stuff if the overall story arc wasn’t as good as it was. I think that may be my favourite superhero script since like InfinityWar….if you take out the DC Elseworlds stuff that’s almost a different genre.

Was just a really great take on childhood trauma, (inability to let it goes turn one Barry into a villain, the other nearly destroys the universe and has to let the past go to save it…Batman having never dealt with it became a recluse)

I hated the opening action set piece with the babies and cartoon batbike tho….just utter trash superhero CGI garbage….enjoyed the Wonder Woman Lasso of Truth bit with Bruce.

I put it out of my mind right after seeing it. Now I barely remember anything from it (don’t appreciate the reminder of the horribly dumb baby collection scene).

But one general issue that repeated throughout that annoyed me so badly were those scenes where Barry was in the process of running, for lack of a better term, and he’d just literally stop to like think about shit, and everything around him would stay in suspended animation. I can accept the halting or slowdown of everything around him as long as he’s MOVING, even just a little, but he can’t be fucking standing still and have everything around him remain suspended. It happened a number of times and really just added to the trash of it all.

I did actually like the scenes with the mother, both at the beginning and end, because I’m an emotional sap, but they amounted to maybe 3 minutes of the film, and, frankly not anything special. That kind of stuff just always gets me for some reason.

 

[zeke]

Spoiler

assholes

 

[Montana]

There were a million other actual substantive issues with the plot and the terrible vfx. Not even worth raising since overall the movie was garbage.

Yeah no arguments there, the was plent worthy of critique….that CGI in the first 20 minutes was inexcusable.

…at the same time i have no investment in any CGI set pieces period…I’m numb for all superhero scenes that’s all green screen at this point.

 

[Montana]

I put it out of my mind right after seeing it. Now I barely remember anything from it (don’t appreciate the reminder of the horribly dumb baby collection scene).

Honestly I wouldn’t argue if you say you wrote the whole thing off for the chunk of the film alone….it was so brutal.

But one general issue that repeated throughout that annoyed me so badly were those scenes where Barry was in the process of running, for lack of a better term, and he’d just literally stop to like think about shit, and everything around him would stay in suspended animation. I can accept the halting or slowdown of everything around him as long as he’s MOVING, even just a little, but he can’t be fucking standing still and have everything around him remain suspended. It happened a number of times and really just added to the trash of it all.

Yeah not being a Flash reader at all, i didn’t know if that was something logically consistent about the speed force in the comics. Nothing about that bubble thing & arena he was in made any sense to me, other than it was representing going back in time and he was seeing the different timelines etc.

I did actually like the scenes with the mother, both at the beginning and end, because I’m an emotional sap, but they amounted to maybe 3 minutes of the film, and, frankly not anything special. That kind of stuff just always gets me for some reason.

Glad we agree there….cause yeah, I thought she was so convincing as an amazing mom, that the supermarket scene was pretty devastating as a result. She crushed it in that short 5-10 minutes she had on screen overall.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Yeah no arguments there wasn’t way way more worthy of critique….that CGI in the first 20 minutes was inexcusable.

…at the same time i have no investment in any CGI set pieces period…I’m numb for all superhero scenes that’s all green screen at this point.

I barely ever watch them, but when I do, I’m often spending much of the film thinking “How could they have approved this script? How could the director be good with this scene?” And so on. It quite literally astounds me, which takes me out of the film.

 

[Montana]

Spoiler

assholes

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Honestly I wouldn’t argue if you say you wrote the whole thing off for the chunk of the film alone….it was so brutal.


Yeah not being a Flash reader at all, i didn’t know if that was something logically consistent about the speed force in the comics. Nothing about that bubble thing & arena he was in made any sense to me, other than it was representing going back in time and he was seeing the different timelines etc.



Glad we agree there….cause yeah, I thought she was so convincing as an amazing mom, that the supermarket scene pretty devastating as a result. She crushed it in that short 5-10 minutes she had on screen overall.

Yeah, the bubble arena didn’t make much sense, but I did like the concept of it actually. They just didn’t execute it well. These types of films where they have multiple layers of time travel almost always trip over themselves in the end.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Did we reveal anything about the story?

I didn’t think there was anything spoilery in our posts. The biggest spoiler of all was the film itself - spoiled like 3 hours of my life.

 

[Montana]

I barely ever watch them, but when I do, I’m often spending much of the film thinking “How could they have approved this script? How could the director be good with this scene?” And so on. It quite literally astounds me, which takes me out of the film.

yeah, it’s time spent checking my phone….or being stunned they left something that looks so bad in the final cut.

I am curious how 5-12 year olds process all this stuff….cause for me all of the “carnage” on screen always just feels completely weightless…they still cannot capture the feeling of seeing & hearing real practical effects done…and that heft real shit smashing into real shit.

 

[CH1]

I find set piece action sequences almost always too long. They were a perennial crowd favourite so at some point the studios decided let's give them more and more of that flavour.

 

[Montana]

Yeah I guess you’re right eh, clearly it’s resonating with the right amount of people for them to keep getting longer and longer, and nearly always the same formula.

Which is kinda uplifting cause it would be depressing if kids saw it how we do, haha.


…compare that to the Batfleck warehouse fight in BvS tho, or Daredevil action scenes, or The Batman’s club scene….and it’s incredible stuff.






Say what you want about Marvel being better than DC…..but neither have any film action pieces that compare to either of those imo.

edit: maybe Logan?

 

[CH1]

I think of the first Matrix and Old Boy (original) version) as exceptions where the director injected something new to the standard tropes

 

[Montana]

original Old Boy hall scene was next level.

Daredevil was smart to rip it off,

 

[oscarheyman]

Spoiler

assholes

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Yeah I guess you’re right eh, clearly it’s resonating with the right amount of people for them to keep getting longer and longer, and nearly always the same formula.

Which is kinda uplifting cause it would be depressing if kids saw it how we do, haha.


…compare that to the Batfleck warehouse fight in BvS tho, or Daredevil action scenes, or The Batman’s club scene….and it’s incredible stuff.






Say what you want about Marvel being better than DC…..but neither have any film action pieces that compare to either of those imo.

edit: maybe Logan?

It’s partly because Bats has no powers, so the best type of fight is a gritty, dirty street fight. And these are both done well. But you just can’t have scenes like these with Green Lantern, Superman, Flash, etc. and they haven’t figured out yet how to make those work.

But these two movies both annoyed me.

I still can’t get over the fact that the script had the turning point of the Bats Supes discord being “HOLD everything, your mother’s name is Martha??? Me too!! We should be besties now!” Just horrifically bad.

And I really didn’t think much of Pattinson’s take. He’s not a Bruce Wayne that I can buy. And the story had no real pull. The Riddler was a total bust. Zoe Kravitz all 4”10 of her or whatever she is, is a terrible Catwoman. The end disaster scene was garbage. There’s zero rewatch value in that film for me. I’ve actually tried but I get bored after ten minutes. I’m bummed that creative team is getting more shots with the character.

 

[Montana]

It’s partly because Bats has no powers, so the best type of fight is a gritty, dirty street fight. And these are both done well. But you just can’t have scenes like these with Green Lantern, Superman, Flash, etc. and they haven’t figured out yet how to make those work.

yeah that sums it …basically all the comics I read are street level superhero’s & zero galactic battles.

Batman, Daredevil, Hawkeye, have my favourite superhero comic arcs of the last 20 years….I did enjoy Jason Aaron on Thor tho.

I still can’t get over the fact that the script had the turning point of the Bats Supes discord being “HOLD everything, your mother’s name is Martha??? Me too!! We should be besties now!” Just horrifically bad.

That scene gets all sorts of shit, justifiably so…but it’s shame people toss away a whole movie over it tho. It’s also a little more complex than people give it credit….and on paper is a decent idea if handled just slightly different. Still have it confuse & distract Batman….but have that distraction be what allows Lois to explain everything, and then toss the krypto spear away.

The extended Snyder Cut of BvS clears up some plot holes that the cut down version has….and makes for a much more coherent story overall.

Eisenberg is brutal as Lex and was a terrible choice from the start….his performance makes it even worse.

Using the criticism people had of the Zod fight in MoS, and having Batman embody that critique as the wedge between him and Superman, (and then Clark taking issue with Batman’s overly violent vigilantism in his articles) was pretty brilliant imo.

Also loved Superman having to testify before congress….the bomb plot, also primo….it being the catalyst for his self-exile…

The BvS fight was real good, even tho I think the Batman armour looked goofy….that’s one instance they didn’t need to be so faithful to the comic, and come up with something less corny.

Doomsday at the end was a nice surprise but the character design was poor….but good use of Superman having to sacrifice to save everyone (thus winning back everyone’s love when he does return)

it was a good script, that told a fairly smart story but just tripped over itself way too often for most folks, but I did enjoy it in theatre, and enjoyed it more with the extended cut. Prob a 7.5/10 for me.

And I really didn’t think much of Pattinson’s take. He’s not a Bruce Wayne that I can buy. And the story had no real pull. The Riddler was a total bust. Zoe Kravitz all 4”10 of her or whatever she is, is a terrible Catwoman. The end disaster scene was garbage. There’s zero rewatch value in that film for me. I’ve actually tried but I get bored after ten minutes. I’m bummed that creative team is getting more shots with the character.

This is all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs….except for him being a shit Bruce Wayne.

He’s maybe my favourite in suit Batman, and having them lean into him being detective made me swoon…but he’s absolutely the worst Bruce Wayne by a mile.

I thought Zoe melted the screen, loved her….Riddler concept was brilliant, making him a Zodiac like figure, but then with the twist that he was inspired by Batman and viewed him as a compatriot, forcing Batman to come to terms with the fact that regardless of his intentions, he’d gone too far and was becoming a villain himself.

Penguin and Falcons were great too….as was Jeffrey Wrights James Gordon…and I loved this take on Gotham, felt like a proper character onto itself, as it should.

Think it’s my favourite Batman movie after The Dark Knight Returns, animated feature.

8.7/10

 

[oscarheyman]

yeah that sums it …basically all the comics I read are street level superhero’s & zero galactic battles.

Granted I don't think "Amazo" is on Darkseid's level but:

 

[LeafOfFaith]

yeah that sums it …basically all the comics I read are street level superhero’s & zero galactic battles.

Batman, Daredevil, Hawkeye, have my favourite superhero comic arcs of the last 20 years….I did enjoy Jason Aaron on Thor tho.



That scene gets all sorts of shit, justifiably so…but it’s shame people toss away a whole movie over it tho. It’s also a little more complex than people give it credit….and on paper is a decent idea if handled just slightly different. Still have it confuse & distract Batman….but have that distraction be what allows Lois to explain everything, and then toss the krypto spear away.

The extended Snyder Cut of BvS clears up some plot holes that the cut down version has….and makes for a much more coherent story overall.

Eisenberg is brutal as Lex and was a terrible choice from the start….his performance makes it even worse.

Using the criticism people had of the Zod fight in MoS, and having Batman embody that critique as the wedge between him and Superman, (and then Clark taking issue with Batman’s overly violent vigilantism in his articles) was pretty brilliant imo.

Also loved Superman having to testify before congress….the bomb plot, also primo….it being the catalyst for his self-exile…

The BvS fight was real good, even tho I think the Batman armour looked goofy….that’s one instance they didn’t need to be so faithful to the comic, and come up with something less corny.

Doomsday at the end was a nice surprise but the character design was poor….but good use of Superman having to sacrifice to save everyone (thus winning back everyone’s love when he does return)

it was a good script, that told a fairly smart story but just tripped over itself way too often for most folks, but I did enjoy it in theatre, and enjoyed it more with the extended cut. Prob a 7.5/10 for me.



This is all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs….except for him being a shit Bruce Wayne.

He’s maybe my favourite in suit Batman, and having them lean into him being detective made me swoon…but he’s absolutely the worst Bruce Wayne by a mile.

I thought Zoe melted the screen, loved her….Riddler concept was brilliant, making him a Zodiac like figure, but then with the twist that he was inspired by Batman and viewed him as a compatriot, forcing Batman to come to terms with the fact that regardless of his intentions, he’d gone too far and was becoming a villain himself.

Penguin and Falcons were great too….as was Jeffrey Wrights James Gordon…and I loved this take on Gotham, felt like a proper character onto itself, as it should.

Think it’s my favourite Batman movie after The Dark Knight Returns, animated feature.

8.7/10

Batman comics have been consistently very good. I actually like the current DD run a lot, and I love everything about the character, but they do get too into hell and mystic shit when DD really should be a street level hero with street level villains, but the current team is pulling it off. I haven't tried Hawkeye - I have the unlimited subscription, so I'll check it out. For me, the Brubaker Captain America run (that gave birth to the Winter Soldier) was gold. Spidey had a moment some years ago, but has been just terrible for a long time now, which is nuts for their flagship character - just garbage stories followed by more junk. The X-Men event series of a couple of years ago (House of X/Powers of X) was great, though once they got into the regular series again, it was awful how they rolled out the new landscape. There's currently a very good Sinister storyline in Immortal X-Men and related series which you should check out if you like the muties.

BvS just lost me at a certain point. That we need to buy that Batman was so fucking dumb to think he had to take down Supes without really investigating and understanding the matter (especially when considering going up against essentially an immortal that could fry him with a wink), bothered me. I don't even remember the particulars of the premise, though your post is jogging memories. But anyway, okay, Bats has deemed Supes a major threat to the planet who must be KILLED (Batman is a big fan of killing, right?), and he won't even let him speak during the fight as Supes tries to explain and get through to him, okay fine. But then Bats does a 180 because he hears "Martha" come out of Supes' mouth. The whole foundation of the movie went out the window with that word, as somehow now suddenly Bats gains consciousness finally, and whatever, the whole "need to eliminate Supes" mission gets dropped and he's volunteering to go save his mom. If something is to untenable in terms of character motivation, that it's almost comical, as I think that was, it just ruins the whole movie for me there. I can say I love that warehouse fight scene (I do, it was awesome), but the movie is officially fucking stupid and makes no sense until the bullshit reason gets them to team up. And yeah, Eisenberg is a horrible Lex, and a horrible _____________ - fill the blank with every character he's ever played, except for Zuckerberg, whose insufferable nature he captures completely (because he shares it).

As for Pattinson, terrible Bruce, agreed. I like the street fighter Bat suit fine, and I agree they capture the proper mood and tone for Gotham, but the movie still falls so far short of the first two Nolan films, and Bale is such an infinitely better Bruce and Bats, and the screen is both bright and vibrant while at the same time dark and grimey (I hate that everything in the new film is so dark you can barely see it), and the supporting cast is so much stronger (Oldman crushes Wright, Ledger nuff said, Liam Neeson, even Hathaway [who I don't even like] obliterates Kravitz), that it's no contest for me. In terms of rewatchability, the third Nolan film is far more entertaining for me to see than to have to sit through Pattinson's attempt again. There's nothing there that I want to see again, just a total bore of a story and lame performances. Dano's Riddler could have been good, I suppose, but they never even fucking meet outside of his jail cell, separated by glass. And the overacting by Dano in that scene is so painful. Again, smaller stuff that just destroys it for me? At the end, Bats is flailing trying to hold onto the bar suspended high in the air, and what happens? Kravitz and her 4"10, 50 lbs, PULLS Bats up onto the scaffold. So absurd and laughable, and it's basically the final scene of the film. Gross.

 

[Montana]

Batman comics have been consistently very good. I actually like the current DD run a lot, and I love everything about the character, but they do get too into hell and mystic shit when DD really should be a street level hero with street level villains, but the current team is pulling it off. I haven't tried Hawkeye - I have the unlimited subscription, so I'll check it out.

Yeah I haven’t read Tom Wilson’s run on Batman but want to, hear that was great…and Tyrion or whoever that did The Joker War.

For me, the Brubaker Captain America run (that gave birth to the Winter Soldier) was gold.

Yeah that was a masterpiece, only Cap book I’ve ever bought, but I grabbed it cause I love Brubakers ‘Criminal’ series, and it didn’t disappoint all time great arc…..and his DD run was also legendary….he’s the rare writer that has both the cache & nerve to pull off significant world changing stuff, which makes the reading experience way better because you know far more is possible than in more ‘safe’ writers hands.

Spidey had a moment some years ago, but has been just terrible for a long time now, which is nuts for their flagship character - just garbage stories followed by more junk. The X-Men event series of a couple of years ago (House of X/Powers of X) was great, though once they got into the regular series again, it was awful how they rolled out the new landscape. There's currently a very good Sinister storyline in Immortal X-Men and related series which you should check out if you like the muties.

oddly never got into Spider-Man…think it was because my two best friends were really into collecting them, so I was exclusively a Batman/Wolverine/Punisher/DD collector as a kid.

BvS just lost me at a certain point. That we need to buy that Batman was so fucking dumb to think he had to take down Supes without really investigating and understanding the matter

He explains his belief at one point, that unless they are 100% certain he won’t turn on humanity, they can’t risk allowing him to stay/live.

(especially when considering going up against essentially an immortal that could fry him with a wink), bothered me.

…Batman did have him beat tho, and chose to not finish him…

I don't even remember the particulars of the premise, though your post is jogging memories. But anyway, okay, Bats has deemed Supes a major threat to the planet who must be KILLED (Batman is a big fan of killing, right?), and he won't even let him speak during the fight as Supes tries to explain and get through to him, okay fine.

That is pretty oh brand for him tho.

But then Bats does a 180 because he hears "Martha" come out of Supes' mouth.

He stops because he’s confused at hearing his own mothers name…which allowed Lois to explain it’s Supes moms name as well.

Could make an argument he was so focused on killing a god to save humanity, hearing his moms name stops him momentarily because he’s confused why he’d say that….he then flashes back to his mother, juxtaposed with him now becoming a killer, trying to kill someone’s son no less….which also then humanizes Superman to Batman as he isn’t seeing him as solely the all powerful alien anymore.

…..but I’m not asking anyone to accept that, the manner they did it (and honestly Cavill’s brutal line reading in that scene)….made it fail. If they had Lois explain the entire Lex plot, to pit them against one another, after Batman gets confused by hearing his moms name, I think it works better.

The whole foundation of the movie went out the window with that word, as somehow now suddenly Bats gains consciousness finally, and whatever, the whole "need to eliminate Supes" mission gets dropped and he's volunteering to go save his mom. If something is to untenable in terms of character motivation, that it's almost comical, as I think that was, it just ruins the whole movie for me there.

and it was so poorly executed I think that was nearly everyone’s takeaway, for sure.

I can say I love that warehouse fight scene (I do, it was awesome), but the movie is officially fucking stupid and makes no sense until the bullshit reason gets them to team up.

disagree, up to there the film is pretty logically sound imo….and the story structure is kinda brilliant.

And yeah, Eisenberg is a horrible Lex, and a horrible _____________ - fill the blank with every character he's ever played, except for Zuckerberg, whose insufferable nature he captures completely (because he shares it).

+1

As for Pattinson, terrible Bruce, agreed. I like the street fighter Bat suit fine, and I agree they capture the proper mood and tone for Gotham, but the movie still falls so far short of the first two Nolan films, and Bale is such an infinitely better Bruce and Bats, and the screen is both bright and vibrant while at the same time dark and grimey (I hate that everything in the new film is so dark you can barely see it),

I think I’d take Pattinson Batman over Bale now, just cause the voice is so tough to take

His Bruce is up there with Keaton, although I think Affleck got kinda screwed having Snyder as director, cause his Bruce & Batman were amazing, just didn’t get to reach its full potential under Zach.

I despise how dark all Snyderverse stuff is….but then loved the colour palette of The Batman, personally.

and the supporting cast is so much stronger (Oldman crushes Wright, Ledger nuff said, Liam Neeson, even Hathaway [who I don't even like] obliterates Kravitz), that it's no contest for me.

Fair, agree across the board except Kravitz….also Bryan Cranston is the goat Jim Gordon.

In terms of rewatchability, the third Nolan film is far more entertaining for me to see than to have to sit through Pattinson's attempt again. There's nothing there that I want to see again, just a total bore of a story and lame performances.

third Batman was better than it was given credit…same with Batman Forever imo…Val Kilmer was great in the role, just wasn’t Keaton.

…and back to Flash, so much of the Batman stuff was fantastic. Way more of it than I was ever expecting, too.

Dano's Riddler could have been good, I suppose, but they never even fucking meet outside of his jail cell, separated by glass.

which isn’t uncommon for Bats tbh….so many of his most important scenes with the villains are after they’re captured and are at Arkham.

was also pivotal here as Dano’s reveal of viewing himself in lock step with Batman, couldn’t be revealed until he was caught.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Yeah I haven’t read Tom Wilson’s run on Batman but want to, hear that was great…and Tyrion or whoever that did The Joker War.



Yeah that was a masterpiece, only Cap book I’ve ever bought, but I grabbed it cause I love Brubakers ‘Criminal’ series, and it didn’t disappoint all time great arc…..and his DD run was also legendary….he’s the rare writer that has both the cache & nerve to pull off significant world changing stuff, which makes the reading experience way better because you know far more is possible than in more ‘safe’ writers hands.




oddly never got into Spider-Man…think it was because my two best friends were really into collecting them, so I was exclusively a Batman/Wolverine/Punisher/DD collector as a kid.




He explains his belief at one point, that unless they are 100% certain he won’t turn on humanity, they can’t risk allowing him to stay/live.


…Batman did have him beat tho, and chose to not finish him…



That is pretty oh brand for him tho.


He stops because he’s confused at hearing his own mothers name…which allowed Lois to explain it’s Supes moms name as well.

Could make an argument he was so focused on killing a god to save humanity, hearing his moms name stops him momentarily because he’s confused why he’d say that….he then flashes back to his mother, juxtaposed with him now becoming a killer, trying to kill someone’s son no less….which also then humanizes Superman to Batman as he isn’t seeing him as solely the all powerful alien anymore.

…..but I’m not asking anyone to accept that, the manner they did it (and honestly Cavill’s brutal line reading in that scene)….made it fail. If they had Lois explain the entire Lex plot, to pit them against one another, after Batman gets confused by hearing his moms name, I think it works better.



and it was so poorly executed I think that was nearly everyone’s takeaway, for sure.



disagree, up to there the film is pretty logically sound imo….and the story structure is kinda brilliant.




+1


I think I’d take Pattinson Batman over Bale now, just cause the voice is so tough to take

His Bruce is up there with Keaton, although I think Affleck got kinda screwed having Snyder as director, cause his Bruce & Batman were amazing, just didn’t get to reach its full potential under Zach.

I despise how dark all Snyderverse stuff is….but then loved the colour palette of The Batman, personally.



Fair, agree across the board except Kravitz….also Bryan Cranston is the goat Jim Gordon.



third Batman was better than it was given credit…same with Batman Forever imo…Val Kilmer was great in the role, just wasn’t Keaton.

…and back to Flash, so much of the Batman stuff was fantastic. Way more of it than I was ever expecting, too.



which isn’t uncommon for Bats tbh….so many of his most important scenes with the villains are after they’re captured and are at Arkham.

was also pivotal here as Dano’s reveal of viewing himself in lock step with Batman, couldn’t be revealed until he was caught.

I was like, Bryan Cranston as Jim Gordon - which movie did I miss?? I see it was just the voicing of the character. Got me.

You (and many others) obviously love Keaton as Bruce and Bats. He's not for me. Even as a kid, I was like, why this guy? I'll never see Bruce in Keaton - he's a total nerd. I accept him, and kinda am amused by him, but the Bale version for me is all time Bruce. You can't do better than that, as far as I'm concerned. I agree that the Bats voice is a little silly if you really focus on it, but it didn't stop me from being riveted as fuck in the theaters when those films were released, and putting them up there on my list of all time best movies period, not even among superhero movies. I surprisingly did like Affleck's take (didn't think I would), but yeah, he had the misfortune of hitching a ride on the Bat Train at the wrong time with the wrong creative team. I do think Pattinson sucks. It's like watching his Twilight character turn out to be Bruce Wayne. Terrible choice.

Can you imagine Flash if it didn't have the Batman scenes? Considering what it is with those scenes, just yikes.